Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction
00:01:47: Where assertiveness crops up
00:04:20: Five watch-outs...
00:07:36: ... 1: too much talking
00:12:58: ... 2: over-caveating
00:17:11: ... 3: all about me
00:21:16: ... 4: energy overload
00:25:39: ... 5: robot risk
00:30:12: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Sarah Ellis: Hi, I'm Sarah.

Helen Tupper: And I'm Helen.

Sarah Ellis: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast.  Every week, we talk about a different topic to do with work, and share some ideas and tools that we hope will help all of us navigate our Squiggly Careers with that bit more confidence and control. 

Helen Tupper: And we recently launched a new newsletter, called Squiggly Careers in Action.  So, it's a weekly newsletter, we put the links to the podcast, we've got your borrowed brilliance, like insights from things Sarah's been reading and watching, Helen's How-to, practical tools, loads of free resources.  So, make sure that you sign up for that if you want to get a weekly dose of career inspiration, and also subscribe wherever you listen or watch to the Squiggly Careers podcast.

Sarah Ellis: And so, today we're going to be talking about five assertiveness watchouts and what to do instead.  We know assertiveness is a topic that always feels relevant.  I think it's one of those skills that we'd perhaps all like to be a bit better at.  There are usually some specific situations I think we can spot where we think, "Oh, I wish I was just a bit more assertive then"!.  But it can feel quite hard to make happen or to know how to do that in a way that feels normal and natural for you, so you're not trying to pretend or doing something that just feels really awkward or uncomfortable.

Helen Tupper: I always think as well, it's easy to assume that assertiveness is one of those things that you're either good at or you're not versus a skill that we can all learn to do a bit better in the moments that matter.  I look at some people and I think, "Well, they're just naturally assertive.  They're just an assertiveness person.  It's much harder for me".  So, I like what we're going to talk about today.  I think it makes assertiveness very practical, very doable for most people at work.

Sarah Ellis: So, we'll briefly talk about what we think assertiveness is so we know what success looks like; perhaps some people that we admire that are assertive and what can we learn from them; and then, we're going to spend most of the time on the five watch-outs and then the ideas for action.  So, when you think about assertiveness, I think maybe a common mistake or a myth is assertiveness only shows up in what we say.  So, I think often the first examples that we think of is in a meeting, in a presentation, you've got other people and you're having to talk, you're having to say something and you think, "I want my communication in those moments to be more assertive", and that's definitely true.  But I think assertiveness is across all of your communications.  So, when we think about assertiveness, it's really about how to have clarity and confidence across any communication.  So, that might be how to write an assertive email, that might be how to write an assertive presentation, as well as what you say.

Helen Tupper: Just in terms of assertive situations for you, do you think you are naturally more assertive in person, in a virtual meeting, or in your written communications?  Where do you think you are naturally most assertive?

Sarah Ellis: Oh, it's a good question.  I think I'm naturally most assertive in a meeting with somebody, like in a room. 

Helen Tupper: Okay, so in person, okay. 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.  I think that's also probably where I've had the most practice, if I think about all of my working years and what I've spent my time doing.  And I'm quite a happy communicator, I'm quite happy in meetings.  I think I've done so many of them, that's probably a bit of a learned skill.  I think I've got a lot better at writing in an assertive way, and I think what really helped me with that was seeing other people do it well.  So, I think actually, my emails and my written work generally wasn't that assertive.  It was probably too waffly, too long, sometimes overly friendly and messages could be mixed or get lost.  Then I think I worked for some people who are very good at that, and I also saw how much you appreciate it.  You know when you're on the receiving end of assertive communications, you're like, "Here's a one-page summary or here's a really clear email", you're like, "Oh my god, that makes my life so much easier". 

Helen Tupper: So true!

Sarah Ellis: And so I'm like, "Well, I want to do that for other people too".  So, I think I've worked much more on that one.  And then virtual ones, I think I still find quite hard sometimes. 

Helen Tupper: I think I'm good at virtual now. 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I see that. 

Helen Tupper: And we'll talk about some of the things that help me.  I think in person, one of my watch outs that will come on two shows up quite a lot, you know the one I'm going to talk about!  And I think I could get better still at written.  I think so, yeah.

Sarah Ellis: ChatGPT might be your friend there, I reckon.

Helen Tupper: That's true, and we'll talk about some ideas for that. 

Sarah Ellis: So, shall I summarise the five watch-outs?

Helen Tupper: Yes.

Sarah Ellis: And then, we'll go into each one and we'll talk about what to do instead.  So, the five watch-outs: (1) too much talking, so we associate assertiveness with saying a lot; (2) over-caveating, so all of those in-betweens and maybes and might-bes that can get in the way and cloud clarity; (3) all about me, so mistaking assertiveness for thinking it all has to be about what you say and lots of I-ness, which we'll talk about; (4) energy overload, so  that perhaps feeling a bit overwhelming for other people rather than just useful assertiveness; and (5) we're calling the robot risk, so almost where you're perhaps following a playbook of how to be assertiveness, but then you lose your personality as a result.  And Helen and I were reflecting on these five and thinking about which one gets in our way the most, so which is your biggest watch-out, so it's a good question to ask yourself.  So, Helen your biggest watch out? 

Helen Tupper: It's the energy overload and I think my unmanaged self is just naturally enthusiastic and I'm a bit like, "I'll just bowl them over.  The way that I'll be assertive is I'll just bowl them over with energy".  But actually, sometimes it just has the opposite effect because it sort of disengages people, it makes them overwhelmed, and so I lose that ability to bring people with me because they sort of disengage.  Like probably, I think if you didn't know me and if you were stuck with me, that would probably be the impact that I would have on you sometimes.  You'd be like, "Oh gosh, she's too much!"  I think you probably still think that but you can't get away from me!

Sarah Ellis: I wouldn't like to comment! 

Helen Tupper: Okay, moving on!  What's yours? 

Sarah Ellis: Mine is too much talking.  So, I think sometimes I think, "Oh, to be assertive, I need to get my voice heard, I need to say what I think, and that's how people will like see my credibility or that's how I'll influence and persuade people".  Because often you're being assertive because you've got something you want to share, and I think sometimes, almost where talking unhelpfully overrides listening, it actually makes you less assertive rather than more, because then I think you can feel like you are dominating discussions so other people don't feel like they've got space, and that's not useful.  But then also, I might miss the point.  So, I might go in one direction because I will think, "Oh, this is what I think is the right answer and I've got something to share".  But perhaps if I've not done enough listening, I've missed signals that actually something else could be more helpful.  So, it's something I've worked really hard on, but I definitely still notice it can come up, particularly when I'm meeting people for the first time or people I don't know. 

Helen Tupper: And I've definitely seen it in you and I've just become more aware of it.  And I actually think it's really interesting, because it also challenges lots of assumptions people make about introversion, because you would identify as an introvert, and I think a lot of people might make the assumption that introverts don't maybe talk as much or don't have that, whereas you will, in situations that are new or where you're nervous, talk more.  And I just know that now that that's part of how you behave in that situation, rather than you wanting to dominate a conversation.  It's never that, it's just a reaction to what's happening.  Maybe we start there with too much talking as the first watch-out, and given that is the one that you identify with the most, what do you do instead that other people can learn from, so that you stay assertive in those situations? 

Sarah Ellis: So, one thing I do before a conversation, and I guess this for me is conversation rather than written communication, is I do always think about, "What do I want my talking/listening ratio to be in this conversation?"  And I do that quite mindfully and quite consciously now, not all of the time, but in those specific situations where I think I am meeting someone for the first time.  And this is where it can be really useful to get some kind of data for your development.  And lots of the AIs that you can plug into meetings now, because most meetings we do are virtual, will actually tell you if you're getting better at that.  But also, I think you instinctively and intuitively know.  You can come away from a conversation and think, "Well, how much did I listen versus how much did I talk?"  And I feel like over the last like six months or a year, I've done a much better job at almost telling myself to just relax and to listen, and also perhaps to let go of, assertiveness doesn't always have to happen today in this conversation in terms of me asserting myself.  What I might want to do is just really listen first and then often people say, "We'd really like another conversation", or they'll be mindful of like, we've not had enough time to hear lots from me today, but then I can do a much better job the next time.  So, that's just one tactic I think that's worked well for me. 

But I think the other thing that's felt really helpful is this idea of assertive statements.  So, an assertive statement isn't a question, that's a slightly different thing.  So, a statement helps you to set the direction for where you think a conversation is going to go next.  And this, I think, is less about necessarily a point of view or talking loads, it's more about listening.  And then, what you do is the transition or the segue from listening into where you then go, so it shows you've actually been listening.  It's like a signal.  So, it might sound like, "Now feels like a good time to..."  So, you've listened to somebody and you're like, "Okay, so now it feels like a good time to decide, do we want to do more of X and a bit less of Y; or actually, is Y more important to focus on first?"  That's quite assertive because you're saying, "We've probably done enough exploring, let's prioritise".  Or it could sound like, "Shall we now begin by…?" or, "Why don't we start by exploring…?"  So, you're setting a direction, you're almost gently, I think, helping to move a conversation forward; you're very quickly also inviting someone to respond to that, because you can't say those statements and then you can't answer it, you know, almost like the statement means you then have to listen to what the other person says.  So, they might say like, "Oh yeah, that's a really good idea", and then they're probably going to share what they think.

The one other thing that I found that has really helped me is, because sometimes I think it's a bit about unlearning and relearning, letting go of the idea that being assertive means that people are always going to agree with you.  I think you can show up in an email with what you write, with what you say, in a really successfully assertive way.  And that can mean that people then say, "Oh, actually, I've got a different point of view", or, "I don't agree with that".  And that doesn't mean you've not done a good job, but I think I used to think it did.  So, I think I would maybe be brave enough to share a point of view or perspective, and then if I didn't get lots of people nodding, I'd be like, "Oh, I didn't do a good job".  And I think you sometimes have to just slightly compartmentalise those two things, like getting a yes is not the same as being assertive.

Helen Tupper: There's quite a lot to unpack in what you shared, about assertiveness can happen over a series of interactions, not just in one moment; assertiveness can look like listening as much as it can from contributing; and assertiveness doesn't always have to mean you get to a yes.  It's quite a lot within that.  I think that's quite important for people to take away.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.  I think what that shows already is that assertiveness is not a tick-box skill.  It's not something where you think, "I'll do one thing" equals one more point on the assertiveness scale.  I think you almost have to figure out, "What does being assertive mean to me, and therefore what are the actions that I'm going to take?" because I think probably what you've just heard is like, that's my version, that's me understanding myself well enough to know when I'm not as assertive as I would like to be.  And then, clearly I've done a bit of figuring out of going, "Well then, what do I need to do differently, and how does it show up, and what are the changes I want to make?" 

Helen Tupper: There's some kind of matrix in it, which I cannot quite create in my head right now.

Sarah Ellis: I could see it in your eyes.  I was like, "What's she trying to do?"

Helen Tupper: I'm trying to build a matrix in my mind!  It's so funny.  We've got a WhatsApp community for some of our very keen people on PodPlus, and they messaged me this morning because they've been listening to a recent episode with Tasha Eurich.  And someone said on the WhatsApp message, "Helen, I could hear how excited that you were getting when Tasha mentioned a two-by-two matrix"!  I actually was, I was like, "Go, matrix, and I haven't had to say it!"  But yeah, there's some kind of matrix.  Maybe I'll try and bring it to life in PodPlus.

Helen Tupper: So, the second watch-out for your assertiveness is over-caveating what you're saying.  So, this is like, maybe I'm thinking I want to come across as assertive as Sarah because I want to influence an outcome for our new book, for example.  And in conversation with Sarah, what I might say is, "Oh, one of the ideas I've had that I think we could possibly consider, but I know there's a lot of other ideas that you've got, so don't worry if it's not possible, but I do think it would be…" etc, etc.  And to Sarah's point earlier about clouding clarity, that over-caveating has completely clouded the clarity of my communication, because Sarah's having to work really hard to work out what I'm trying to say; and as a result, I've lost my assertiveness, I've lost the ability to say clearly and concisely, "This is the thing that I care about".  And I also think there's quite a lot of reasons why people might over caveat.  They might not be confident in the thing they're trying to say, so they're just almost, you know how I sometimes think out loud, just doing that.  Or maybe they are nervous about how someone's going to respond.  Or, I think also sometimes people worry, back to one of the assumptions we need to challenge, I think sometimes people might worry that if you're too assertive, it can sound a bit arrogant.  And so, if they've got a confidence grumbling about being liked or a lot of people-pleasing going on, they might be softening their words so much that they're losing that clarity, they're losing the impact of their assertiveness. 

Sarah Ellis: But I do think you have to be careful.  You know when you hear people say, "This is probably a silly idea"?  And I'm like, "You've just told somebody it's probably a silly idea". 

Helen Tupper: Yeah, what sticks in your head then? 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, like the anchor that you've given somebody, or because people often start, "It's probably a silly question", and I'm like, "Probably not".  And so, I just think actually having the confidence to say, "These are some first thoughts I've got".

Helen Tupper: Yeah.

Sarah Ellis: "I've got a question it might be useful for us to consider".  I think it's still okay to have a 'might' in there, because you've still got to communicate in a way that feels like a normal sentence, haven't you?

Helen Tupper: Yeah.

Sarah Ellis: We're not saying, "Get rid of all the in-between words".  I think it's just noticing whether there are certain phrases that might be getting in your way, particularly probably at those moments where you do really want to be assertive.  When you and I are chatting to each other, it's not top of my mind about being assertive, most of the time, there might be moments, but most of the time.  But then, there might be other times where maybe you are working with someone and you are trying to be more assertive, and it's then how intentional are you, I guess.

Helen Tupper: Well, the 'what to do instead', if this is your watch-out, so over-caveating, is to use 'I statements', so like some of the ones that Sarah said there.  So, like, "I think we should..."  "One thing that I would want us to consider is…"  Be very intentional about the I statements.  And I think also try to say the I statement and stop, because I think if you say it and then you keep going and keep going, then again, you've lost the impact of the 'I'.  So, just have a really clear I statement, stop, invite someone else's perspective, and I think also the ability to stop and pause and listen is also an assertive thing to do.  But nice, clean I statement intentionally used, if you are at risk of over caveating, is one of the ways you can bring your assertiveness back in.

Sarah Ellis: I found it's really worked for me to use the phrase, "First thoughts".  I use that a lot.  I will often say to, say, a new learning partner we might be working with, they've maybe described a bit about their company and what they want to do and I will say, "I've got two or three first thoughts I'm happy to share".  And I think that feels quite assertive, but not so assertive that I'm saying, "This is the answer", because those first thoughts could be wrong.  I'd almost rather find out that they're wrong, but they're still my first thoughts.  So, I'm sort of taking a bit of ownership for those.  And so, I find that phrase really helpful.  I also find somebody who'd got conflict as a gremlin, I'm never going to say to somebody, I don't think, "I disagree with that", but I would say, "I've got a different perspective", or, "I've got a different take on that", and that just about feels comfortable enough for me to say out loud. 

So, the third watch-out is all about me.  And I really like this one because I think this works well if you are someone who does find assertiveness difficult, maybe the over-caveating is really hard for you, perhaps you're more of a listener than you are a talker already, you play a kind of supportive role, you're very empathetic.  If you're listening and you're like, "Oh, you're describing me", I think this is the one for you, because assertiveness doesn't have to be all about you all of the time.  Of course, we want you to share your point of view, we want you to communicate with clarity, but the action here we're calling, "Inviting others".  And we think you can actually be really inclusive in your approach to being assertive by inviting other people into a conversation.  And actually, when we were talking this through and we were sort of practising it out loud as we were preparing for this, this is something I think I've seen in action from Helen all the time.  And so, it's almost easy to know this works because I see you do it.

So, what Helen does really well in meetings is, if somebody hasn't had the opportunity to contribute or perhaps they started to say something but a few people spoke at once and they immediately gave other people space, I see that you clock it and then you will just always come back and say, "Oh, I think Lucy's got something that would be useful to share", or, "Oh, Danielle, did you have a point of view you wanted to offer at this point?" or you'll notice my thinking face, which you seem to just always know what that looks like, and I mean you're more direct to me, you'll be like, "Sarah, what are you thinking?" and you'll just include me in that conversation.  And actually, you do it in a way where I feel like it is assertive, because your assertive is a bit about taking control.  You're taking control of that conversation, you're making sure that people don't get left out or left behind, and you're also making space for other people.  But it definitely feels like an assertive thing to do, because you have to have confidence to do this, I think, and also you have to have the sensing ability to notice.  I think this takes a lot of noticing, which when you described this to me when I was like, "Oh, how do you do this?"  I think you naturally just have that radar.

Helen Tupper: Well, I think back to people might think assertiveness is all about what you say, I think you can be assertive in how you direct a conversation. 

Sarah Ellis: That's what I mean.

Helen Tupper: Even how you start a meeting, for example, like the things we're trying to talk about today, how you close a meeting, so, "The actions we're going away with are..."  These, the framing, the direction of a discussion, I think still people can come away from that meeting and still have a perception of someone being assertive, not for being the person who talked all the way through, but for the person who sort of directed the discussion.  But I feel good about my assertiveness when it has enabled other people, like when I've made sure someone has spoken.  And I think sometimes that is about making space for people.  So, actually, just before we move on, I just want to go back to a point that Danielle made, you know, you're making space for them to talk through.  Or sometimes, it's about maybe just giving them a little bit of confidence like, "Oh, Sarah, I can see you've got a thought.  Would now be a good time to share it?" just that little bit of bringing people in when they might not be brave enough to do it for themselves.  And I feel good about my contribution to a meeting, even if I've not been the person who's shared that thing.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, you're very good at that, and I see that as the reason why people would want to work with you and for you, like a big reason, because I think people would always feel listened to and that they mattered.  And we know mattering is really important as part of a team dynamic, and it's almost a small action that you take that I think probably has a significant impact on how people feel.

Helen Tupper: Also, selfishly, it's a forcing function to stay engaged in meetings.  If you're ever drifting off, if you think, "Do you know what, I'm just going to tune into other people so that I can include them", it just keeps you very engaged in a meeting when that's your agenda.

Sarah Ellis: So, shall we talk about the fourth watch-out, where maybe you're not as brilliant as you are all the rest of the time, which is energy overload.  So, when this happens, what do you think the impact is?  Like, what do you think are the consequences of too much energy flowing out of you?

Helen Tupper: I think this tends to happen at worst when I start a meeting, because if I'm not very managed about this, I'll start every meeting with energy, but sometimes too much of it, and it can come across a bit chaotic.  I think I sometimes do this on PodPlus, but I think they're all used to it now, and I'll just be like, "Hi everyone, oh my gosh, so much is happening at the moment", and it will just come out in like a flood, a stream of like, "How are you all doing?  Whoa, my gosh, what a crazy…" like just a stream of updates and just a bit of everything all at once. 

Sarah Ellis: Sometimes quite random, I would say; I've seen some quite random stuff! 

Helen Tupper: Really random! 

Sarah Ellis: You sometimes message me and you're like, "Oh, zebras came up", and I'm like, "How did zebras come up?"

Helen Tupper: Because a collection of zebras is called a dazzle, that's how that come up! 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, that was a real example.

Helen Tupper: That was a real example.  So, yeah, a bit random, a bit overwhelming.  And I think for some people, but I would probably say the minority of people, there's a connection, an instant connection.  But for the majority of people, particularly if they've not met me before, I think they're like, "Whoa!", a little bit whoa.  And obviously, that's not being assertive, because I think assertiveness is you've created a credible connection with somebody.  And so, I think you can lose it in that moment.  So, yeah, I have to manage my energy, particularly in initial interaction, so it's not overwhelming for people.

Sarah Ellis: And we were saying, sometimes you felt like maybe it can come across as maybe a bit immature, or out of sync, or lacking gravitas.  But this is one where we've really thought carefully about what we think the action should be.  Because I think there's an important point when you're thinking about assertiveness, is you don't want to lose the you-ness.  So, if you lose Helen bringing energy, that is one of Helen's strengths.  It's also a value that she's got, it really matters to her.  So, we don't want to suck the joy out of how Helen shows up in those interactions.  So, we're calling this action, "Mirroring enough".  So, just mirroring would probably mean that you have to adapt so far that you're getting into pretending territory.  You're like, "I'm having to show up in a way that isn't authentic to me and doesn't feel like me".  So, that might mean that you met someone who was very serious, very introverted, maybe very slow-paced.  All of those things would be dramatically different to you. 

What we don't think is the right thing to do is say, "Well, I've suddenly got to be that person, be more someone else".  I think actually, it's about adapting enough so that you can actually just sense, "How can I use my energy in a useful way for this person and for this situation?"  And so, I think at times, your random extra energy is absolutely fine.  And you were saying that, you were like, "Well, there are moments where it's quite fun --

Helen Tupper: Yeah.

Sarah Ellis: -- and playful, and people probably need that in their weeks.  But perhaps if you were meeting someone from a different culture, and perhaps if you're meeting six who are all sitting around a board table in suits and look quite serious, zebra chat might not be the place to start!

Helen Tupper: Let's not talk about dazzles at that moment.  Again, when I'm being intentional about my assertiveness, I'll maybe be looking at how people are responding, I'll maybe drop a quick question in like, "How are we?" or something subtle at the start.  And then, depending on how people respond, it gives me a bit of data that helps me to think, "Well, how do I need to mirror you enough while retaining what makes me memorable in that situation?"  So, it's the moments where I'm intentional about assertiveness that I will be more conscious about mirroring. 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I think it's just about looking for clues and cues about, "How can I be assertive in a way that works for me, and also is going to be effective for other people".  So, the final watch-out, which I think is actually really connected to the four that we just talked about, is this thing about the robot risk.  And the reason that we're both laughing quite early on with this one is we have seen this happen in action.  Would you like to give the example, Helen? 

Helen Tupper: Well, yes.  So, it's kind of weird, isn't it, that I could both have the over-enthusiastic energy, and that I've also fallen into the trap of the robot one.  So, we were doing some filming with Penguin for --

Sarah Ellis: I think it was Squiggly Careers.

Helen Tupper: We were in a studio.

Sarah Ellis: I really remember the video though.

Helen Tupper: There were lots of cameras and they wanted us to clearly and assertively communicate about Squiggly Careers in our book.  And there was a bit of a script.  And I think I was so busy thinking what I wanted to say and what words were going to be impactful and assertive that I just said this script and I basically lost all of my… when we watched it back, I don't think we quite realised in the moment, which was awful because you can't go back to a studio and re-record this stuff, it was like a moment in time.

Sarah Ellis: It is weird that we didn't clock it at the time. 

Helen Tupper: Oh, it's awful. 

Sarah Ellis: Because honestly, if you watch it back, you are talking like a robot, and it's so un-Helen-like.

Helen Tupper: Like, "Squiggly Careers are really important for people's development and we should all be..."  So, we have never used that content because it's so uninspiring. 

Sarah Ellis: It probably exists somewhere if you look hard enough.

Helen Tupper: Don't look!

Sarah Ellis: We would look hard for it, I think that's for sure!

Helen Tupper: But yeah, so this robot, I think it happens maybe when you're nervous or when you're making assumptions that you need to be very serious about stuff in order to be assertive.

Sarah Ellis: I've seen it happen to people on stage, where they've had feedback around presenting to big groups and then they've gone really robotic, only from a sense of trying to get better and trying to take that feedback on board.  But then, they sort of lose all sense of who they are and there's no expression and there's no emotion.

Helen Tupper: Do you know where I saw recently?  I'm not going to name the event because I don't want the person to be identified, but I was at a large event and there was somebody on stage who had mentioned that they'd done the same presentation a few times in different places.  And they stood on one spot and they basically spieled off their presentation.  But I don't know whether they'd got so used to what they were saying, and maybe so bored.

Sarah Ellis: They just reeled it off, yeah.

Helen Tupper: They were so bored by what they were saying, they'd lost that ability to connect with the audience.  It just felt very robotic and it was really boring.  That is the point with this.  The person on the other end of the robot is bored by this.  And so, if this is your watch-out, and there are lots of reasons why it might be your watch-out, so please don't think we're being too harsh about it --

Sarah Ellis: No, I think we're being harsh on ourselves. 

Helen Tupper: Yeah, you might be harsh on me maybe!  You might be nervous, or whatever, there might be lots of reasons why this is your watch-out.  But one of the easiest things to do is to start with some kind of empathy.  So, if you can create a connection with an audience about how people are coming to you on that day, whether it's the start of a meeting, or maybe it's a Monday morning, or it's after a bank holiday weekend or something.  If you can start with empathy, it immediately creates some kind of connection with the people that you are communicating with, and then they want to listen to you.  You've reduced the risk of the robot, because you've immediately created some kind of connection with your audience. 

Sarah Ellis: And we were saying we've seen people do this really brilliantly, where it doesn't take a lot.  This empathy could just be a small moment of connection of seeing the world through your team's eyes, or just knowing what's going on for people right here, right now.  And then, actually people quite quickly can move into being quite assertive about, "Well, this is the focus, this is the priority", and communicating with actually a lot of clarity and really influencing and persuading people.  But like you said, I think by that point, people are on board, they get me, they understand how it feels right now.  You actually did it in Squiggly Careers in Action, the new newsletter, you'd written the introduction this week.  And you started it by saying -- we'd just had a bank holiday here in the UK when we were recording this, and you said, "Hope you've all had a great bank holiday.  I bet like me, you're all coming back to those emails that you should have done on Thursday, and then you just decided could probably wait".  And that's just a tiny moment when even I read that and thought, "Yeah, I did that", as did probably everybody else.  

Then, you talked about actually our podcast interview with Tasha Eurich.  So, you went then much more to the point, "You should watch this, this is why".  You were being assertive in your communication, but it's just a small moment of empathy that then I think, like you say, gets people on board.

Helen Tupper: It's quite a nice example of, this could happen in an email just as much as it can on a stage as well.  So, they are all of our watch-outs.  So, really, this is about tuning into, "What is my watch-out?" and then taking the action that's going to help you improve your assertiveness, and that's quite an individual reflection, individual action for all of us, but hopefully we've given you enough to get started.

Sarah Ellis: As always, if you've got any feedback, you can email us.  We're helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com.  We love hearing your ideas, guests that you'd like to hear from, or just any feedback on how these episodes are helping you.  But that's everything for this week.  Thank you so much for listening, and we're back with you again soon.  Bye for now.