Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction
00:02:02: Different aspects on silos
00:06:55: Figure out your most significant silos
00:08:04: Ideas for action …
00:08:13: … 1: channel your inner anthropologist
00:13:01: … 2: build bridges
00:20:19: … 3: find space away from your silo
00:24:14: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Helen Tupper: Hi, I'm Helen. 

Sarah Ellis: And I'm Sarah. 

Helen Tupper: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast, a weekly show where we talk about the ins, outs, ups and downs of work and give you some support, some ideas and just maybe a bit of empathy to help you succeed in your Squiggly Career.  And if it's the first time that you have listened, you have quite a few episodes to go.  But actually, if you're a bit worried and you don't know where to start, head to our website, which is amazingif.com.  You can search for the topic that matters to you most right now in a search bar, and it will come up with all the episodes and things that we have done, which will help you.  And each of our episodes as well comes with a bit of extra support.  So we've got PodSheets, so that's a one-page downloadable template, which has got questions and all the ideas for actions that we share; and there's also PodPlus, which is a weekly conversation with either Sarah or myself.  It's free, it's every Thursday, there is a lovely community there on Zoom that you can learn with too, and we just dive a bit deeper into the topic we talk about so you can learn from some other people and you can put the ideas into action that little bit more easily. 

So that is all there for you, you'll see the links for that in the show notes.  And if you ever can't find anything, just email us.  We're helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com.  

Sarah Ellis: So, today we're talking about how silos stop you in your job and hold you back in your career.  And this week's topic links really nicely to a new Harvard Business Review article that we've just got out, if you want to take a read, which is about some experiments that we've been doing with 15 organisations and more than 7,000 employees, all about career progression, or as we like to call it, "Squiggly and Stay".  And so, in that article, which is a bit different to some of the ones that we've done before, we describe some of those experiments, whether they worked or not -- every good, experiment some of them work better than others -- employees' experience of those experiments, and how you as a leader or an organisation could set those up if there's something that you're interested in.  So, we'll link to that from the podcast today, and have a quick read and we'd love to know your feedback.  And if you'd like to find out more about those experiments or if we can help support your organisation with something similar, you can get in touch with us on the email that Helen mentioned before. 

Helen Tupper: So, back to today's topic then, all about silos.  Sarah and I had a bit of an interesting experience in prepping for this podcast.  So, what we tend to do is we decide a topic in advance, which normally happens over WhatsApp, many messages, and then we both go off and research it and we put all of our ideas into a Word document and then basically create a bit of a structure for this conversation.  What Sarah and I realised when we were looking at the Word document is that we'd both come at silos from a slightly different perspective because of our own experience.  So, we thought we'd share just a little bit about our experience of silos so you can maybe think about what does this look like for you. 

My experience of silos and how I think they have got in the way of my development has been when I have worked probably largely in big organisations, and I have been in one particular function and I have wanted to do something else, so as an example, I've been working in sales and I've wanted to make a move into marketing, but there has been something within the organisation that has made that really hard for it to happen, like, "People don't normally make that move", or, "We don't know how to do that with you", or, "Actually, it's just easier for you to stay in this function".  So, maybe a manager's not really made it very easy, but it's been seen as sort of an unusual move to make, and therefore I felt that I've had to work very, very hard to make it happen.  And without that effort and that energy, I would probably be stuck in my silo. 

So, my experience has, I guess, been quite structural, like an organisation has not supported me to move across an organisation and do lots of different things.  It's, I have felt stuck because of that siloed structure, and the risk for me has been that that would impact my career development, my skills wouldn't be developed in different areas, I might have felt like my relationships were quite constrained to the career that I was currently in rather than being built beyond it, and actually, I just think my enjoyment of my work would start to suffer because I just feel a bit frustrated that this was what I would have had to do if I was going to work here.  So, that's been my experience of how silos have affected me.  Sarah, what's your perspective? 

Sarah Ellis: Whereas, I think I've seen silos more in terms of departments and teams, where people get a bit territorial about their team, their perspective is the right perspective.  Or, I think just sometimes everybody gets very heads down and you're all working really hard and it's not always intentional, but you end up stuck in silos.  You feel like even though you're very interdependent and reliant on other people to get stuff done, everyone's working individually.  And then, it can end up feeling like you're working against each other, which is never a good thing, or that maybe you don't have those common interests and goals that help you to move forward.  And so it sort of feels like everyone's, you know, I always think of it in lines, like vertically versus horizontally --

Helen Tupper: Yeah.

Sarah Ellis: -- and I think, when I think of silos, just in my head I see all these vertical lines of everyone trying to move forward with the things that are important to them, but then that can often be counter to or contradict the team that could even just be sitting next to you.  And in big organisations, I guess the risk of this is perhaps higher, just because you've got people in different places and people working in different time zones.  But I do actually even see it in Amazing If.  We're a much, much smaller organisation than the big ones that Helen and I spent most of our career working for, and I still see those silos in Amazing If.  In some of the different departments and the different work that we do, sometimes those departments don't talk to each other or don't collaborate or communicate. 

Again, I never think that is from a desire to be protectionist or to keep things to yourself, I think it just ends up being a kind of nature of, we've got lots to do, people are busy, people are heads down, and then you forget to look across.  Maybe you look up, but people in the Amazing If team might think, "I need to talk to Helen", but they perhaps don't think, "Oh, but I need to talk to someone in a different team".  So, it's a slightly different perspective on silos, I think. 

Helen Tupper: So, we came to the conclusion from these different perspectives that silos can hold you back in your job, which I think is what Sarah has talked about.

Sarah Ellis: We learned so many ways that silos get in your way. 

Helen Tupper: We were like, "Oh my gosh, this silo thing is massive!"  But yeah, they can hold you back in your job because they stop you being effective in the ways that Sarah talked about, but they can also, I guess from my frame, they can hold you back in your career because you might feel more stuck in a particular position rather than feeling like you've got lots of opportunities for your progression.  So, we did feel that even though we came at things in different places, what it basically made us think was that silos are really, really significant and what we need to do is find ways to grow beyond silos, whether that's affecting your job today or contributing to your career in the future. 

Sarah Ellis: And I think what might be a useful place to start for everybody listening is to figure out which are your most significant silos at the moment.  So is it actually, you need to go beyond your silos just to be even better at your day job; or is it that, as Helen described, actually you're really curious about maybe transferring your talents or doing something different, and so actually going beyond your silo looks like actually a move that you might want to make in your career.  So, perhaps just be thinking, "Okay, well which of these is getting in my way?"  And again, don't be too hard on yourself because you're probably getting in your own way, as well as other people or systems or structures might be getting in your way too.  I think we've probably all been guilty at times of staying stuck in our silos, because also it's often what we know, what feels most comfortable. 

Helen Tupper: It's easier, right?  Yeah, it's comfortable. 

Sarah Ellis: It's easier.  Like you say, you make progress.  It's a bit like, "Oh, if I could just ignore everyone else, I can just get on and do it". 

Helen Tupper: Well, and maybe you also get a bit victim-y as well.  #

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, a bit blame-y. 

Helen Tupper: Yeah, exactly like, "Oh, it's just how it is around here", rather than going, "Okay, I can see a silo, I can see how this affects how people are working, so what can I do?"  And I think that's what we are going to try -- we've got three, "What can I do?" actions for you to maybe have a bit of an experiment with if a silo feels like it might be getting in your way at the moment. 

Sarah Ellis: So, our first "how" is to channel your inner anthropologist.  Helen and I have got very excited about researching anthropologists for this podcast.  We've both decided we'd quite like to be one, so that would be us doing a bit of a bit of a squiggle. 

Helen Tupper: We should both do a different course and compare answers, I quite like that. 

Sarah Ellis: Well, you can talk a bit about the book you've been reading in a second.  But the thing about an anthropologist is, they study culture and characteristics.  And so the idea here is, if you bring an anthropologist's mindset to your organisation, it will help you to escape your silo.  And so, we were thinking about, "What are some of the questions that you would almost be curious about?  What would you be researching as anthropologist if you were thinking about your company?"  And you'll be able to come up with more, I'm sure, but here are three just to get you started. 

So, one, "How would you describe to somebody who doesn't know, how does your company make money?"  I think that's such a fascinating question, and I think loads of people would struggle to describe that in a simple and straightforward way. 

Helen Tupper: Even, "How much money does your company make?"  I think I probably wouldn't know that. 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, we've done lots of companies!

Helen Tupper: Yeah! 

Sarah Ellis: So, there is something almost about the dynamics of your company.  You might be a not-for-profit, you might be a charity, but still just understanding almost how does your company function; how does it succeed?  I think that's really interesting.  Then we thought there might be something about, "Where does the power and influence exist in your organisation?"  So, an anthropologist both would observe that, they would see that in action, and they would notice like, who are the decision makers; who seems to have undue influence, perhaps even though maybe their title or their level might not necessarily give you that indicator of the influence that they have? 

Helen Tupper: I wonder what our team would say about us.  They'd be like, "Helen thinks she makes decisions but actually it's Sarah who's the decisionmaker in this business!" 

Sarah Ellis: Oh, yeah, I don't know if I would want to hear that actually!

Helen Tupper: I don't want to know either, I don't want to know; let's leave it! 

Sarah Ellis: They'd probably just tell me some of the things I know about myself that are definitely true.  And then the last one, we were trying to get to a question a bit more about culture, so what are some of the common company characteristics that everybody in a company would recognise; the sort of, what makes your company your company, especially if you've got actually probably any size organisation?  But you know if you went and asked people like, "In one word, how would you describe what it's like to work around here?"  Or, "If you were going to describe in a sentence what it's like to be in this company?" almost like, what are those common things that would just keep coming up? 

I remember one leader who Helen and I were talking to, actually we were interviewing for an event that we did, they were describing their organisation and I remember saying to them, "It sounds quite relentless", you know, as a bit of a provocation, and he said, "Oh, that's interesting, that's the number one word people use to describe what it's like to work here"!  And I remember thinking, me being an anthropologist just for ten minutes was listening to him, listening to him answer lots of questions and kind of observing and slightly second-guessing and just going, "Oh, does that feel fair as a cultural characteristic?" and it clearly did because he identified that and he was like, "Yeah, I think that is fair". 

Helen Tupper: Or guessing, I think, Sarah's referencing the book that I've read, which is called The Silo Effect by Gillian Tett.  And I think one of the things that she talks about, some of the anthropologists, there's lots of different contexts for it in the book, but they kind of go around and observe people living their day-to-day life.  And I think what you could do is kind of ask people to tell a story about a significant moment in a company, and just listen and learn from the stories that they tell.  And I was just thinking about Lucy in our company, Sarah, when she said about, in Amazing If, one of the things she's noticed -- so Lucy's worked in a very large organisation and now works for us, and she said that one of the things she's noticed in Amazing If is that when we say like, we'll talk about something, a piece of work that might need doing, and Sarah or me will be like, "Oh, no rush, don't worry, by the end of tomorrow is fine".  She said, in another company, a bigger company, if you say, "No rush, don't worry", that means by the end of next week is okay.  So, in Amazing If time, "No rush, don't worry", is basically 24 hours for something!  That's kind of interesting. 

Sarah Ellis: It means it doesn't have to be done today! 

Helen Tupper: It's not now, you've got at least 24 hours!  But that's interesting because part of the way that people would experience our organisation is that we are pretty pacey in terms of how we work.  So, sometimes I think getting people, what might it sound like; what things might you hear working in this company?  Those sort of statements or stories can be really interesting to surface when you're being your inner anthropologist.

So, idea for action number two is all about building bridges.  So, when you're stuck in a silo, you might find yourself very limited to your function and therefore the projects that you work on; the people that you work with are very connected to your role today and what you're doing on a day-to-day basis.  Building bridges means looking for an adjacent function.  So, this isn't sort of randomly going to someone in the organisation, though that can be interesting too, but this is a little bit more connected.  So, what's an adjacent function to yours?  So, for example, if you are in marketing, I would suggest that an adjacent function was sales.  If you're in finance, an adjacent function might be procurement.  If you're in operations, it might be strategy, and so on.  It will depend a little bit on the structure of your company, but you're looking for one that is kind of connected not too far away, but maybe one that you don't work with really closely all the time. 

What you're going to do here if you're building bridges is proactively look for opportunities to get involved in meetings, maybe you're going to spot shared problems, maybe there's an event or a moment in time where you could more easily come together and you are looking to learn, what are they working on; how are they doing it?  You're looking to build relationships, so who could I work on that project with and that function, I could build a strong relationship with, because we're both working on that project together?  You're also really looking to stretch your strengths, so you're using your strengths maybe on a slightly different project or with slightly different people.  And this kind of adjacent way of working will help you to get through the silo.  It might take time, like this is not going to lead to you suddenly having broken that silo tomorrow.  It does take time for you to build those relationships, for you to make progress on that project, for you to stretch your strengths.  But proactively looking for those adjacent opportunities will make that much easier. 

Just as a way of bringing this to life, there's an article that I read more about leadership, and we'll link to this in the PodSheet in case you want to read it, it's a Harvard Business Review article about how to lead across a siloed organisation.  And one of the things that stuck with me from the article, they talked about "making purple".  And so they said, "Some people work red and some people work blue, but actually people who work effectively across a siloed organisation, they make purple".  They basically mix the red and the blue, and they make purple.  And you're trying to be a purple person.  You're the person that brings these two areas together and something different exists because of it.  So, be a purple person is what we're trying to look for here. 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and I guess I can think of examples of people I've worked with who are very good at this, who are naturally purple people, and they are good at making the whole bigger than the sum of the parts.  I think that's the outcome and that's also why organisations are so obsessed with wanting to break down silos.  So, they're often naturally structured to create silos and then they have to break them back down, and it's why some organisations are more matrix-based now, there's lots of cross-functional project teams, and all those kinds of things, because I think organisations recognise that sometimes they're not always set up to help people to work in this way.  But I think from watching people who are very, very good at this, who are real experts at this, they always prioritise spending time understanding.  I feel that they get that, "This is not about me, building bridges is not about me", it's about understanding your perspective, your challenges, what's on your mind at the moment, and so actually they could articulate really clearly in an adjacent function, "Well, what are the goals of that area; what are their knotty problems or what's not working at the moment?"

I think I've definitely been guilty of this sometimes in the past is, if you don't understand that, then sometimes you miss why something that you're working on isn't sticking.  And so, perhaps actually all you receive from another team is either they're really slow, or you just sense a lack of interest, a frustration.

Helen Tupper: Like, a no.

Sarah Ellis: Or just a no, or they sort of get to it at some point.  And you're there thinking, "Oh, but this is really important".  And I think people who are great at building bridges go, "Yeah, this is really important to us, but actually this might be really unimportant to this other team, or it's really, really far down their list.  And do you know what, they're actually dealing with three other things at the moment which is going to make it really hard to make something happen".  And so, I think you don't always have to be in team meetings or really involved in projects with other teams.  I actually just think, if you can create some of those relationships, even be strategic about who you're being mentored by, I think having lots of mentors, we've always talked about is a good thing, and make it really informal. 

I remember having a few mentors at Sainsbury's who were just in very different areas to me, and actually that helped me to escape my silo, because they're talking about, what's going on in the world of their technology teams.  Because of course, when you meet, you're like, "Oh, what's happening in your world at the moment?" and they describe stuff, and you think, "Oh, I mean, that sounds stressful", usually, if you're talking to technology teams.  Or they'll be talking about some stuff around finance and, I don't know, they've got to talk about some cost budgeting things that you think, "Oh, okay, well that sounds really significant and quite hard to do.  And then you realise two days later, you're asking them for some numbers for something you're working on and no wonder it's going to be tricky to get those things this week, because actually they've got a different priority.  And sometimes, those things are just not that transparent, it all feels quite opaque until you start talking to people, and then it just gives you that sense of almost the fuller picture or the bigger picture, I guess, it's often described, rather than just your part of a picture. 

Helen Tupper: I think just very personally, the things that really helped me build bridges were working on cross-functional projects, so I would always put my hand up for a cross-functional project; and then, the second thing, which is probably much more me than Sarah, I would get involved in company events.  I often found company events, you're sort of representing your function.  So in one space, you're kind of, "I'm representing my silo".  But because those company events brought everyone together, it gave me an opportunity to build those relationships.  I always tried to spot those opportunities. 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and I think I probably did it.  Definitely mentoring; mentoring really helped me.  I naturally ended up working on quite a lot of cross-functional things, almost not through intention, it was just they were the jobs that I had, so that was definitely useful.  And actually, just spotting opportunities to, I think, spend time with different teams.  I think because I was always, and am always, curious, so I was just like, "Oh, I wonder how that works", or, "I wonder what's happening in that team".  And then you start to realise, actually the more you understand, I think the more effective you can be. 

But I was also at times somebody who, like I said, would have fallen into the trap of being so determined to get something done and naturally being a bit stubborn, I think sometimes that means if you have those traits, then you do stay in your silo because you're like, "Right, I want to achieve this thing".  And sometimes spending time outside of your silo in the short term slows you down.  I think it is a slowing-down-to-speed-you-up thing.  So, it can feel frustrating for me because I'm like, "Oh, I want to achieve stuff and I want to make these things happen".  But then you realise you're going to get to roadblocks anyway if you don't end up doing this stuff. 

Our final idea is to find space away from your silo.  So, we were both reminiscing about how sometimes, silos can be very hard to find your way out of and they can feel restricting and frustrating, and maybe some of the things that we've described so far, you might kind of go, "Well, I've tried that and I can't get involved in those cross-functional projects". 

Helen Tupper: "I just need to leave.  I think that's the only way I'm going to get through this is to leave and work in an organisation that's different". 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, or perhaps you're just getting a bit, you know when things feel samey and stuck or stalling.  It's all of those kind of words, I think, where sometimes silos just feel really hard to find your way out of.  And we were both reflecting that when you find space away from your silo, so almost rather than trying to fight the silo or fight the system in this example, you're kind of going, "Okay, we'll go somewhere else.  We'll leave that to one side for now, doesn't mean that we might not have to come back to it at some point", but where have you got space to create, to play, to do something different, where you're basically going to be free from that frustration and those restrictions?  And actually, we talked about when we first started Amazing If, that's exactly what this was.  It was a lot of space away from our silo, it was outside of our big organisations, it was outside of marketing that we were both working in, it was outside of the industry, so it really was quite far away, and we could just make it up as we went along. 

Actually then what happens is then you meet people that you wouldn't meet otherwise, you work in a way that you don't normally work, and you start to almost create a sort of status and develop skills that are beyond where you are with your day job, and that you could probably get with your day job.  The thing that we also both realised is we hadn't been particularly intentional about going, "Oh, we want to escape a silo", it was probably just more a response to how we were both feeling.  And then we're natural creators, so we went away and kind of created some stuff. 

Helen Tupper: I think that skills and status outside of your silo is a really, really key point here.  Again, you might not be doing intentionally, you're just trying to follow some people that you'd like to spend more time with or a passion that gives you energy, but the outcome is new relationships, better developed skills, and maybe a different way that you can talk to people about what you're doing with your development.  And I think those are the things that unlock opportunities.  So, back to Sarah's point, this will take time.  This will take time for you to get involved in those things, but the outcome is that you will unlock different opportunities and you'll probably have a lot more energy for them,

because at the moment, if all your energy is going into feeling frustrated and fighting a silo, then that's not actually that helpful and you're probably not feeling particularly positive.  

But channelling it into something that you enjoy and people that you enjoy spending time with, which back to reminiscing, It was definitely how I felt doing Amazing If.  Suddenly, I kind of bring that back to work, I'm excited and I'm positive and I've got new ideas and I've got some new experiences.  And all that starts to build your identity in a different way.  You're more than just the person who, you know, my point of doing that was working in marketing; I'm much more than that now because I've got this other identity and these other relationships and this other set of experiences that I couldn't have built in my day job.  I think that's what these opportunities help you to do.  Now obviously, Sarah and I started a side project.  You don't have to do that, it could be volunteering, it could be a community, an internal community or an external community that you decide to be active in, but it's those other experiences that we're looking for here, that space away from the day job, the space away from the silo. 

So, just to summarise then, three ideas for action today.  Number one: channel your inner anthropologist.  If nothing else, it's quite fun.  Number two: build some bridges, starting with maybe adjacent functions could be quite useful, and then Sarah and I shared a few other ideas that work for us there.  And number three: get some space away from your silo.  We will summarise all of that and also some of the links that we talked about and books, we'll put all of that in the PodSheet, and you can find that on the links to the show notes, or just go to amazingif.com and then the podcast page and you'll be able to find this episode there. 

Sarah Ellis: Thank you so much for listening, that's all for this week.  We're back again soon.  Bye for now. 

Helen Tupper: Bye everyone