Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction

00:01:07: Defining the term "myth"

00:02:15: Three principles of challenging myths…

00:02:50: …1: ask, don't assume

00:03:29: …2: think what the opposite is

00:04:07: …3: look for outliers that tell a different story

00:05:33: Five common myths…

00:05:53: …1: asking for help is a sign of weakness - make the ask easy

00:11:38: …2: talking about my talents is arrogant - share, don't sell

00:18:50: …3: if it doesn't exist yet, I can't do it - pitch, prototype and pilot

00:25:16: …4: I need to tick all the boxes to apply - own the gap

00:35:01: …5: going back means going backwards - work your weak ties

00:39:11: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Helen Tupper: Hi, I'm Helen.

Sarah Ellis: And I'm Sarah.

Helen Tupper: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast, where each week we share ideas for action and tools to try out that we hope will help you, and always us, navigate our Squiggly Careers with more confidence, clarity and control.  And this week, we're going to be talking about how to bust the career myths that hold you back.  It's inspired by, well Sarah and I are always thinking, "What would be useful for people to talk about on the podcast?"  There's no giant plan of like 20 episodes, everybody!  It's generally the week before, and Sarah and me are WhatsApping each other going, "What is on people's minds right now".

We had this floating idea around career myths and assumptions that get in people's way, and I put a post on LinkedIn to test whether this was something that was relevant, and I shared some myths and then I asked other people to say, "Would this be a valuable thing for us to cover; and what other myths do you think get in people's way?" and I had loads of comments.  I was like, "Wow, this is something that people really have an opinion on"!  So, we've validated that there are many myths that are holding us back, and we are going to talk about how we can bust some of the most common ones. So, myth is a funny word, don't you think?  I think it's like a story time with my kids, type of word.

Sarah Ellis: It must come from mythical, I guess; is that right?  So, yeah, it feels sort of fairy tale-like, doesn't it?

Helen Tupper: Yeah, so we've done a bit of googling to work out how would a myth be defined.  Apparently it is, "A traditional story or a widely-held belief", and in the context of careers, a myth could be something like, "Climbing a ladder is the best way to succeed at work". 

We have an opinion on that statement, by the way, which you're probably well aware of. But the issue really with myths is that when context changes, so for example the world of work becomes much more dynamic and different, and those myths remain, then it stops people exploring their potential.  They don't question it, basically, they assume that's true for everyone for all time, and even though the context has changed, they're still in that old way of thinking, and that can really get in the way of their growth and their development.  That's why we almost want to identify, what are these myths, and then do some practical myth-busting.

Sarah Ellis: And there are three principles of challenging myths, because I think that's what we're trying to do.  We're trying to check, "Are these things still true?" and the fact that they're a myth implies that maybe not, that perhaps we're just so used to thinking in that way, we keep doing what we've always done. So, these three principles are quite helpful, because we're going to talk about five common Squiggly Career myths, but you might have other ones.  I think organisations have myths, so you might have certain myths that your organisation has or your team have.  So, whatever myth-busting you're trying to do, these three things are useful. The first one is, "Ask, don't assume", so asking really good, quality questions that help us to challenge whether it's the status quo or those myths.  

And that can feel like a confronting thing to do, because those myths might have been around for a long time, we might all feel very used to them.  But I think that's a starting point, that we all need to have more of this questioning mindset.  Or, like some of the work that Adam Grant over at Wharton has done, where he talks about rethinking, I think it's almost giving ourselves permission to do some rethinking, and to do that we've got to ask some new questions, or ask some questions for the first time. The second thing that can be useful when you're exploring a myth is to think about, "What is the opposite?" because opposites open up thinking. 

So, if we're thinking a myth at the moment is, "In our organisation or in our team, everybody still thinks about careers as ladders", it is actually useful to think almost visually, "What is the opposite to a ladder?  What's an opposite word to a ladder?"  So, if you were just approaching something from the exact opposite direction, what would that be?  I've found that really useful as we've been thinking about some of these things.  If you're thinking about a weakness, what is a strength; the opposite to a weakness is a strength.  So, opposites are really helpful. Then finally, look out for any outliers that tell a different story.  Now, outliers might genuinely be a one-off, or they could be evidence of something different, or that things are changing.  So, perhaps you've got one team in your organisation that seems to be doing things differently and perhaps we don't really understand it, but we're like, "They're real outliers.  They seem to be approaching how we recruit people in a completely different way", or, "They seem to be looking at careers in a very different way", so doing something different. Often I think we dismiss different as, "They're almost doing something that's not helpful", or maybe they're challenging for challenging's sake.  I think it is really easy to be dismissive about something that feels unfamiliar, because we like things that feel comfortable and familiar for what we've done before.  But outliers, I think, are really helpful when we're trying to challenge these myths.

Helen Tupper: In listening to you, I have spotted a bit of alliteration, Sarah, which might come out in a PodSheet --

Sarah Ellis: Course you have!

Helen Tupper: -- which is those three general principles, I think of it as outliers, that Sarah just talked about; opposites; and I think the other one is origins, you know, the "ask, don't assume", is like, "What's the origin of that myth, and has stuff changed since then?"  So, origins, opposites and outliers may well be reflected in this week's PodSheet, because sometimes it's just when we listen to each other that we spot some things in what we're saying. So, the five common myths.  The way this is going to work is we're going to go through the myths that we see, hear and relate to most, and then we're going to talk about the opposite, so we're going to bust that myth.  And then, as ever, because we want to be really practical, we've got an idea for action.  So, we'll have five myths that get busted and five ideas for actions to go do something differently. Myth number one that I relate to is that asking for help is a sign of weakness.  Yeah, I think we all probably know why this is a myth that gets perpetuated. 

People see in their mind that it means that you don't know what you're doing, or you're worried about what people might think about you if you ask for help, or you don't want people to think you're not capable, all that kind of stuff, and it just reinforces this myth that asking for help is a sign of weakness. So, let's bust the myth, because the opposite is actually true, "Asking for help is a sign of strength, and it will accelerate your development".  And personally, this is something that I have really, really realised.  I used to struggle, and I still don't find it really easy, but I used to struggle quite a lot with asking for help, but partly it was a sort of determination issue.  It wasn't like, "I don't want to ask for help, because people will think I'm not very good at what I'm doing"; it was, "I don't want to ask for help, because I want the perverse pleasure of having done it myself".  And it was like, "I just want to keep going and keep at it". Then, I started to realise that that was slowing me down, it also tended to slow the people around me down as well, because I became a bit of a bottleneck, and I think sometimes I still do this actually.

Sarah Ellis: No!

Helen Tupper: I'm trying to get better at it!

Sarah Ellis: I know you are.

Helen Tupper: But I do think if this is a myth that you work with, to be honest, and it might be holding you back, I do think it is worth reflecting on, "Why do you struggle to ask for help?"  So, is it that you worry what other people might think; is it because you've got this weird thing that I have, that I need to keep hold of it, because I've got to get it done, because I've said I will, or whatever is going on in my mind with it?  Because, I think it makes the thing that you do next in order to bust that myth, a bit more real and relevant to you.

Sarah Ellis: And there is a brilliant quote from Barrack Obama about asking for help, and I always think it's particularly pertinent and poignant when someone who you feel, "Surely he never needs to ask for help, he's just amazing at everything".  But one of the things he says is, "Don't be afraid to ask for help when you need it.  I do that every day.  Asking for help isn't a sign of weakness, it's a sign of strength.  It shows you have the courage to admit when you don't know something, and to learn something new". I just think if we could ever just get a summary of a quote that really shows everything that we're trying to talk about here, he talks about learning, he talks about doing it every day, don't be afraid of it, it's not something we should be fearful of.  And I think, "Well, if it's good enough for him, I think it's good enough for all of us".

Helen Tupper: Yeah, we can all be more Barrack just by asking for help.  And we were trying to think of just an example to make it really real.  So, I think the thing where I've really made a shift is, occasionally at Amazing If, we don't do it all the time, but there will be events that we are organising, like for a book launch, or something that we're doing for the partners that we work with on the different programmes that we run, and I think I used to just be like, "I'll book it, I'll do it".  I wouldn't ask for help, I would add that on top of what ever else I was doing and try and just squirrel away at it in the evenings and do as much as I could. I think I've become much better now at asking for help from people that I can see can do stuff better than me, because they're just more organised and on top of it; and also, because I also recognise that it's not just about them doing it better than me, it's that if I try and do everything, I'm not going to anything particularly well.  So, that do it all versus delegate thing, I've just got a lot more comfortable now with signalling when I think I need help, because someone can do it better, or I need help because can't do it all. The idea for action, so that you can put this into play in whatever you're doing at work, is to make the ask easy. 

So, rather than going, "I'm really struggling, I need help", which might be a reflection of how you're feeling, but it's hard for someone to respond to that, because they don't really know what you need; if you can be a bit more specific, it's easier for people to help you.  It often also reduces the fear in you asking for the help, because there's just a bit more clarity in the request. So, maybe break it down into what we call the three Ss.  Think about, "Are you looking for support?" so is this a situation that feels challenging and you could just do with somebody to listen to you, because you can get it off your chest; "Do you need solutions?", so are you thinking, "I don't know how to do this.  It's really hard and I haven't done this before, and I could just do with a bit of help in coming up with some new solutions"; or, maybe the third one is a sounding board, so maybe you have got some ideas, and you're not quite sure what the right one is to move forward, and what you want is maybe someone that can question and challenge and just help you think it through a bit more. That idea of framing the ask in support, solutions or sounding board, might just make it easier for you to say and easier for somebody else to say yes to, to give you the help that you need.

Sarah Ellis: And I think we've both found this really useful.  So, this is also a really good conversation to have as part of a team, because I think most of us often default to one of these.  So, perhaps you're a default supporter, solutioniser, or you're someone who's really good at a sounding board.  And what Helen and I have realised is, Helen's default is solutions; my default is probably sounding board, because in sounding board you get to do ideas, I get to generate new ideas.

Funnily enough, I think what we're both finding is what we probably often need most from each other is support, is just someone to listen and to help us figure out how we're feeling, or why we might be feeling that way; we don't need someone to solve it; and actually, we don't need more ideas either.  So, I think this has also really helped both of us in both asking and giving help.  It's just a really simple framework that I think means that you can more quickly get what you need and give what's helpful. So, myth number two is, "Talking about my talents is arrogant/uncomfortable/awkward", add in your own adjective there, whichever works best for you.  And so, this idea of talking about our strengths can often just feel really hard.  And I think it is interesting that one of our most listened-to podcasts is, How to Make your Strengths Stand Out and Show Up, because I think we're all acknowledging that myth in that that's why lots of people have listened to that episode.  It's a bit like, "We know this is something we should do, but I don't really know how to do it".  So, I think the problem with this myth is it's become one of those "should" things, but the practical reality of doing this feels really hard. So, to bust this myth, the first thing we definitely need to recognise is that sharing your strengths is a good thing.  It means that other people can spot opportunities for you to use them more.  If you want to do more of what you're good at, if you want to make that strength stronger, if you want to spend more time on the things that give you energy, the things that you enjoy, opportunities to find your flow, we have got to talk about our talents, we have got to share our strengths.  I appreciate it's not easy, but the win/win for this is that you'll get better, but also your teams and your organisations will also get better as well. So, there are lots of positive outcomes from this.  Again, I think it's just sometimes, "How do I do this in a way that doesn't make me cringe, or that feels natural to me, doesn't feel forced?"

Helen Tupper: An example to me of this feeling natural and not forced and that I'm comfortable with, I don't feel it sounds arrogant is, first of all you've got to acknowledge you've got a strength, so it starts with you being clear about a talent that you've got.  So, for example, one of my slightly weirder talents is pithy comments; what do I mean by that?  If I'm writing a social post, for example, I can often summarise something into quite a sharable statement, which is quite helpful on social media.  Or, like a podcast, you know, earlier I just said, "Origins", and whatever the other two Os were that have gone out of my head!  But often, in the course of a conversation, I can find a way to create clarity in some sort of particularly sticky statements.

Now, I work with a charity, so I'm a trustee of a charity, and rather than going to them, "I'm good at coming up with sticky statements", I mean I would never say that, because that just sounds really weird and also not that useful; what I did was, there's a campaign for example that the charity runs every year, it's connected to something called The Big Give, and I basically said, "I can look through the copy and the positioning and see if I can help you". What I was trying to do there was, I was confident enough to say, "I can look through this and see how I can help you", because I thought I could help them; but I didn't have to -- I was sharing my strengths with them in a way that I thought was useful, but without sounding arrogant.  So I wasn't going, "I can revolutionise your copy with my sticky and pithy statements", because yeah, I didn't know if I could do that, and also it sounds really weird.  I just said, "Let me have a look at it.  I think I can help with the positioning", because I believed in that strength that I've got.  And then, it did make a difference to what was communicated, and I hope I can offer that support to them again. But it's that idea of being clear about a strength you've got and thinking how it could be useful to somebody else, and then proactively sharing it with them.  And when you connect those things, that's not an arrogant thing to do, that is a useful way that you can help someone else do something that they are working on.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and I wonder if that's a bit of a reframe that's part of busting this myth, is you know we start by being self-conscious about almost, "I've got to talk about something I'm good at" versus starting with, "How could this be beneficial for someone else?" almost start with, "Actually, I'm being helpful [or] I'm going to be useful". So our idea for action here is, share, don't sell your strengths.  I always remember this statement that somebody I worked for once said to me when we were thinking a bit about strengths and how we could show people as a team how we could support them. 

She always said, "Don't tell me you're funny, tell me a joke".  So, this is almost Helen's point about, it's weird to just start going around saying, "Hi, I'm great at…" and none of us do that, which I think is why that podcast episode is so popular. If we can have a sharing mindset, rather than a selling mindset, firstly I think we all feel more comfortable with that, because we're sharing and that feels useful, that feels helpful.  And also, it's something that we can all do. 

So, if you think about one of your strengths, think about, "How could you share it with someone else?"  Maybe that is one other person through some strengths' mentoring. I really like the idea of everybody doing strengths' mentoring in teams and in organisations, like going, "My strength is, I'm great at starting stuff from scratch.  Helen's strength is, she can write you a pithy comment for social, amongst lots of other things", and then it suddenly gives us all permission to actually be talking about those strengths, because someone could come to you and say, "I'm trying to get better at that" or, "Can you talk to me about how you do that?" and that feels really helpful. Or maybe you could run something like a masterclass, like a "masterclass in…" or a "lunch and learn", or perhaps you could join up with a couple of other people who are good at something similar to you, and you could do that together.  You're almost talking about your talents together as a group, so perhaps it could even be, "What are our strengths as a team?" as well as, what are your strengths as an individual. We do also know this has one extra benefit, in that the best way to learn anything and to get better at anything is to share it. 

When we think about a strength and we have to share it with someone else, we do have to deconstruct what is it that makes us good at that thing.  So, Helen writing those pithy comments for social, she can probably just do that, it comes naturally to her, she's good at it and she's not really thinking through, "Here's the formula for how I do this". So, if Helen then has to share that strength with me in one-to-one strength mentoring, she's got to think about, "What is it that I do; and how do I do it; and how could I share this with someone else?"  So, Helen's strength gets even stronger as a result.  Basically, everybody's winning here when we bust this myth, I feel.

Helen Tupper: Also, I was just trying to think it through, make it really real.  So, the other thing is, when you are confident in talking about your strengths and spotting opportunities to help other people, then I think other people also start spotting opportunities for you.  So, we have this thing that we do in our confidence session, where we talk about a movement from a limiting belief that holds you back to a limitless belief that moves you forward, and it's a little bit of a play with language that can really sort a narrative out in your head.

Sarah will often say, "If you're struggling with moving from a limiting to a limitless belief, then get in touch with Helen afterwards, because this is something that she does well", and it's the same strength, it's the same thing, it's this ability to play with language to create these quite sticky statements.  But because Sarah knows that, because we've talked about it together and she's seen it, she will then find other opportunities for me to do it more, and that's what happens here.  So suddenly, you don't even have to talk about your talents that much, because other people see that it's useful and start talking about it for you. 

It's really, really useful!  So, that's the thing, useful strengths, not talents being arrogant. So, myth number three is, "If it doesn't exist yet, I can't do it".  So, this might be, "If a job doesn't exist, I can't do it; if no one has worked in the way that I want to, I can't do it; if that's not my company's policy, it's not possible for me".  Or, maybe there's something you want to learn, but it's like, "Well, they don't learn that here, so I can't do it here", those sorts of assumptions, "If I can't see it, I can't be it", that sort of thing. We would like to bust that myth, because it holds people back, and it also keeps people stuck in a situation that exists today. 

And you do have the opportunity to design your own development.  We are not saying it's always easy, and we've got an idea for action to make it practical for you, but it is possible, it is definitely possible to be the first person to do something, to create something that doesn't exist today. For me in my career, an example of that would be, when I worked at BP and I created a brand-new team from scratch.  We had a new manager coming into the business, and I took my ideas of the wider department structure and what I thought was missing, and what I thought filling that gap could look like, and why that would be a benefit of the business; and I put it into a presentation and I pitched it.  And as a result of that, I created a team that didn't exist until I shared that, and I created myself a new role. If I had waited for somebody else to, they might never have done that, they might not have spotted the same thing that I had seen, or positioned that opportunity in the same way.  So, it was possible, I had to go after it, but it definitely was possible to create something that didn't exist until I did it.  What about you, Sarah?

Sarah Ellis: I was thinking about this, because actually I think this is a myth that I have never subscribed to, and maybe that's because I do think certain myths are probably linked to our own beliefs that we have about ourselves.  And I think because I am someone who likes to create things and I like to create something from nothing, if it doesn't exist, I just see it as an opportunity to create, I'm like, "Perfect!"  And I like newness, I like new things and I like change.  But that doesn't mean it's not sometimes scary, and it definitely means having a "create, not wait" mindset when it comes to your development.

Probably my most significant example was when I moved from a five- to a four-day week.  And now, that doesn't seem like a big deal at all, but at the time there were very few people working a four-day week, there was certainly nobody I knew who worked a four-day week so they could spend one day on some sort of slightly abstract idea that she'd got about careers and career development; and we were way off really Amazing If looking and feeling anything like it does today. I couldn't say, "Because, on that Friday, I'm going to record a podcast and I'm going to write a book", in the way that I could very specifically now.  I just had a sense that I would be better in all of the work that I did if I had some space outside of my day-to-day, and outside of an organisation, to just do something different.  So, it felt like quite a vague ask in lots of ways, which definitely made it more uncomfortable, and I have talked about before, my goodness did I pitch that idea!  I mean, I went all out on a very, very long pitch; it was absolutely not needed. We've talked before about "project on a page".  I do think, "pitch on a page".  You do not need to create a 20-page PowerPoint to pitch something.  I've been there and you really, really don't.  And actually, it's harder to pitch on a page.  And if you can get what you're trying to change, or what you're trying to create, onto a page, you've probably got really good clarity in terms of what you want to do and why you want to do it, and you're probably much more likely to get a yes. I had a brilliant boss at the time who could see through the 20-page deck, and could probably in her head get to the pitch on a page, but I think I was probably a little bit reliant in that moment of having a brilliant boss, and I think you don't want to make your development dependent on other people.  So, do yourself a favour here, and creating often does require support, so make that support easier to get from other people.

Helen Tupper: So, the idea is to pitch, prototype and pilot.  What do we mean by that?  Pitch: pull together a pitch on a page, summarise the idea, and show it to somebody that can maybe build on it and, to Sarah's point, you can get a bit of support for it.  Prototype: can you bring it to life in some way, so people can see what you're trying to say.  You're just trying to make it a bit more real.  Almost the more real it becomes, the more buy-in you can get along the way, because it just becomes a little bit more tangible.  And then the third bit is pilot: give it a go, but not with the expectation that it has to succeed.  I think the good thing about pilot is, people often give you a bit more permission to experiment, because you're not committing to doing this forever. It's really funny actually, as I was talking this one through, I was thinking about Amazing If, because the myth, "If it doesn't exist, I can't do it", could have got in our way, but we didn't.  We were like, "If it doesn't exist, then we can do it", was more of our mindset, and we did a pitch on a page.  I think I still have it somewhere, Sarah; I'm going to have to dig it out.

Sarah Ellis: Oh, no!

Helen Tupper: It was right from the early days, it was a one-page document that we sent to a couple of people.  I remember, I think Sherilyn, who was the Founder of The Marketing Academy, I think she might have had it, a couple of other people did.  It's a one-page document that just had the concept on there to get a bit of feedback and got a bit real. Then we prototyped what it could look like, and I put that picture on social media today, because it's from ten years ago and I found the prototype of all of our very first sessions, where we were designing them.  And then pilot is the first session.  I remember us doing the first session.  We didn't really know what we were doing, but we were just live learning, which is what you're doing most of the time, but you're very actively live learning when you're doing a pilot. So, I promise you, it's what we have done, and sometimes you do that and you learn a bit and you decide you don't want to continue with this thing.  But the not knowing, or it not being visible, doesn't have to get in the way of you doing it and giving it a go.

Sarah Ellis: You should definitely try and find that pitch on a page and see what we said and whether we're still doing what we said, or how much it's changed.

Helen Tupper: Okay, I'll dig it out; I'm going to WhatsApp it to you.

Sarah Ellis: But then I want approval before you share it with everybody else!

Helen Tupper: You heard it here, everyone!

Sarah Ellis: Which is the exact opposite, by the way, everybody, of a growth mindset; so, pretend you didn't hear that! Myth number four is, "I need to tick all the boxes to apply".  So, whether this is ticking all the boxes to apply for a role, or just feeling like there's a checklist somewhere that you kind of go, "Well, I couldn't possibly mentor that person because I don't have enough experience, I don't tick all of the boxes; I couldn't move from one team to a different department, because I don't tick all of the boxes", you know that sense of often, sometimes, it's an imaginary checklist in our minds, or sometimes it might be a real checklist that you can see in a job description, and it gets in the way from us exploring our potential.

I think it is really important that we bust this myth, because practically, I do think job descriptions still often do read a bit like wish lists.  So, one of the things that we've done recently, when we have been advertising roles, is we have a very clear sentence in those job descriptions, and I don't think we even call them job descriptions, where we just say, "Here's a bit about the what and the how".  On the first page of when we describe a job, we'll say, "You don't need to be able to do everything that we're going to describe.  We really want to know what you can do, and it's absolutely fine if you've got gaps along the way". So, I think just remembering that sometimes, they are just wish lists, and that also what people really care about is, "Can this person learn; can you learn to do those things?" because the vast majority, if not everything, I was trying to think if there's anything that isn't learnable; but we know that the way that our brains work is that they've all got that neuroplasticity, they're all ripe and ready for growing, we can all keep developing new neurons and connections, and that's possible for all of us forever, hopefully.  And so, we've got that ability. 

So, Knowing and showing that you're really willing to learn, and having that learning agility, to me feels way more important than, "Do I feel like if I went through a job spec, I could tick everything that they're talking about?"

Helen Tupper: I can't think about ripe and ready without seeing my brain as an avocado, because that's the sticker that's always on the good avocados, "'Ripe and ready', oh it's a good one!"  An example maybe of this, I think my job at Microsoft would have been a really good example of this. So, the first job I did at Microsoft, Director of Audience Evangelism, what was on that job?  I mean, I definitely did not tick the vast majority of the boxes, "Knowledgeable about evangelism; knowledgeable about technology?"  But I had met some of the people in the team and I loved the culture, and I thought there were some other things that I could bring, and I was just confident enough to sell those, rather than unconfident enough to put myself forward, because personally I just look at those bullet points as like, that might be what you've got on the person right now, but then I go, "But you've not met me and I'm going to bring you something different". I recognise that is quite a confident position, because this is not a myth that has held me back, and I know it's really hard if this is one, but I think if you can get to that, if you can go, "Those bullet points are just either describing the person that does the role right now, who's probably written the job description; or is this ideal scenario", and try not to let that get in your way, then you can often put yourself forward for so many more opportunities than you would otherwise.

Sarah Ellis: What I would also say about this is, I have applied for lots of things where I haven't ticked lots of the boxes and haven't been successful.  So, I've been unsuccessful in maybe the outcome, so you don't get the job, you don't get the role, and this is not just when I was in organisations; I've also applied for things to do either voluntarily, or more trustee-type things I've also applied for and also not been successful in. I think it's really important when you have that experience that you don't then think, "That's because I didn't tick all the boxes", because whether it's naïve or just hopeful, I never came away from those experiences thinking, "I shouldn't have applied in the first place".  I always come away from those experiences thinking, "I've increased my self-awareness, I've probably learnt from that process".  I've usually made some really good connections, maybe I've built some new relationships.

There was one role that I went for, it would have been about this time last year, that was a Chair role, that I would have loved to have got, for an organisation I really love, that I wasn't successful in; but I really enjoyed the application process, the interview process.  I actually met someone who we actually work with through Amazing If and I was like, that was a really nice moment of serendipity.  Also, it was good practice for me having a conversation in a different way about the work that I do and who I am.  I don't have many interviews in quite the same way anymore.  So actually, I came away from that going, "Oh, it wasn't that I didn't tick all the boxes, it's just that I wasn't the right person at that time". This is where the idea for action that we're going to talk about comes in, which we're calling, "Own the gap".  So rather than mind the gap, or ignore the gap, let's own the gap, because I think it's really important to talk transparently about what you've not got and use those gaps as opportunities for growth.  I think it's really hard to pretend to be good at something that you're not, or --

Helen Tupper: Do you not think that increases imposter syndrome as well?

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.

Helen Tupper: If you're pretending, then I always feel like, if I pretended then I'm going to get found out.  So, just being open from the outset is just easy, you don't risk the imposter syndrome thing.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I do think faking equals a fear of being found out.  So, I really remember in that interview for that job that I would have loved, but I didn't get, I remember there was one question where I was like, "I don't know this; this is just not my world, this is not my area of expertise", but I already knew that going into that interview. So, the way that I responded to that question was much more about, "I'm aware that this is something I've not got experience of so far, but I find it really fascinating".  Then I talked quite specifically about almost how I might see that gap as an opportunity for growth and what that could look like, maybe some things that I'd done a bit of research on, bit of reading, watching, listening, so that I could demonstrate that I'd gone a bit further than going, "I know I've got a gap"; I'd also thought about, "Well, how could that gap be an opportunity for growth", and I'd done a bit of growing prior to that conversation.

I hadn't filled that gap, I was miles away from filling that gap, but I think you get, from people you certainly want to work with and from, I got a lot of appreciation from the honesty, and a little bit of vulnerability, and got really good feedback on my response to that question.  And actually, we often talk to organisations where, because we get nervous about the gaps that we've got, they'll often say to us, "How do we get people to own the gap?" because people are maybe having interviews about transferring their talents, or doing something differently, and people are not prepared to talk about the gaps. I think we've got to create cultures and environments where people feel really safe and confident to go, "This is absolutely me at my best, and here's where I'm brilliant, and here's loads of examples", and shining a spotlight on our strengths, all that really good stuff; and then also acknowledge no one is perfect, no one is going into a job interview being equally brilliant at everything.  Again, if you start to say it like that, it sounds ridiculous, but I think sometimes we have ended up with this myth of ticking all the boxes and then going, "I need to go into an interview and pretend to be perfect".

Helen Tupper: I think Sarah and I are both doing quite a lot of interviewing at the moment, because we've got new roles for Amazing If, and I was interviewing someone yesterday, and I was actually really conscious of the language that I was using, so that somebody could comfortably tell me which bits of the roles felt less familiar to them.  But I didn't want to frame it as, "What are you nervous about?" or, "What do you think you can't do yet?" because I think that's probably not a comfortable thing for someone to talk about if they don't know us very well. So I said, "What areas of the role feel like the newest areas to you?" and I think just talking about it as what feels new is potentially an easy way.  If you're a manager who's trying to get somebody to talk about this, but you want to create a comfortable environment, I think in an interview saying, "What is it in the job description that feels like a new area for you?" is better than saying, "What do you not know how to do yet?" and someone might feel like, "I don't want to say that, because you're looking for the gap that I've got".

Sarah Ellis: That's interesting, because Helen and I have not talked about -- we're not doing these interviews together.  And I asked a similar question and phrased it slightly differently.

Helen Tupper: What was your phrasing?

Sarah Ellis: I went for, "What in the role would you be looking forward to doing for the first time?"

Helen Tupper: Oh, nice, yes.

Sarah Ellis: Which I think we're both trying our hardest to get to the same thing.  And I think you're right, it's the newness, it's the first time.  And again, I'm not trying to catch anyone out; I think people will know what you're asking, but I'm hoping that it gives people permission to say, "I've never done this before", and I liked the "looking forward to", because I was then hoping that that might give people almost positive permission to be like, "Haven't done that, but excited to learn it and to give it a go", and I'd be like, "Okay, great, good to know".

Helen Tupper: But it does make me think actually, if anyone would benefit from some questions, I think Sarah and I are trying very much always to put in place the culture that we talk about on the podcast in the conversations that we're having about our company.  So, if anybody would like, "What are some of these growth mindset, open types of interview questions that you ask?" then let us know.  You can just email us, helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com, and maybe if we only get one message, we'll just reply to one person!  But if enough people email us, then we might create, I don't know, some kind of asset or something, with potentially a pithy statement, no, not really!  But maybe they'll be something that we share if it's useful for people.

So the final myth, myth number five is that, "Going back means going backwards".  This is the idea that maybe we'll still being quite ladderlike in terms of how we're thinking about our career, where up is good and back is bad; and therefore, what people do when this myth is in their mind, is they're not really looking at all the directions that they could be developing in.  And if we're going to bust this myth, I guess the reality that we're trying to recognise is that going back to something that you've done before is really just another direction for you to develop in.  And all you're doing is keeping your options open. Actually, going back definitely doesn't mean going backwards, and going back doesn't always mean doing exactly what you've done before. 

So, I can think of so many ways that I could go back in my career.  I could go back to a profession, I really loved marketing, I actually really enjoyed sales, I loved innovation.  I could go back to any of those areas, and I'd actually be really happy in those jobs.  There are some companies that I've loved working for, there are some people that I've loved working for.  And even just thinking about that, I think I could create in my mind really quickly ten different progression possibilities for me that were all based on going back to somewhere or someone or something I've done before. It's really interesting actually, with Sarah and me, in that we have gone back to people that we have worked with before, and we've gone back to organisations that we've worked with before, in our business, Amazing If, today.  So for example, we work with Virgin, we work with Microsoft; Sarah, we've worked with your old managers in lots of different contexts actually. 

And that's because going back could just unlock those opportunities if you're willing to give it a go, and just let go of any kind of ladderlike concept that that's a bad thing to do. So, the idea for action here that can help you to do this, because there's a mindset point which is like, "Just be open to it", but then there's a practical point about what can you specifically do.  And we would recommend working your weak ties. 

Now, we have done a podcast on this very point.  So, if you'd like to dive into it deeper, that's probably a good listen after this. But the weak ties are effectively people that you don't work with on a day-to-day basis.  So, there's some kind of connection, but it's almost not a constant one.  So generally, weak ties could be people that you know in a community around your profession, or somebody maybe that you've worked with before, and that's what we'd recommend you doing here; reconnect with people that you've learned from or been inspired by, or benefitted from in previous roles, because those people can help you connect the dots in terms of going back to something you've done before. So, I might reconnect with a manager that I've worked with, or I might reconnect with a colleague in a company that I used to have some conversations with, but haven't spoken to for a while.  And it often feels like an easier place to start, because there's some form of common history with that person; and from a conversation can come lots of opportunities.  So, work your weak ties, go back to those people that you've worked with before, and just have curious conversations with them, because you never know where that can take you, you never know what opportunities that might unlock.

Sarah Ellis: And as we've been going through today, I was thinking, if you feel like myths are getting in your way, it might be worth doing some almost myth mapping, and thinking about, "What are my myths; so, what do I feel are holding me back?"  You could also do some team myth mapping so, "What myths do we feel are getting in the way of our team?" and doing a great job as a team.  And then almost organisationally, "What in our culture, what are those myths that feel like they're really sticking around that again, we could do with some myth-busting?" because I do wonder whether you'd get to some different answers.

I think individually versus team versus organisation, you'd probably have some different myths and they'd have different levels of impact, in terms of how we behave and what we do.  So, I think this could be interesting in loads of different areas.  And if you do try doing any of these ideas for action, or talking in your teams about myths, we'd love to hear from you, because we always like to know what's useful; but also equally, what's not and what other conversations you might have had, or what myths we might have missed that you think are really important for us to think about in the future.

Helen Tupper: And so, we will summarise the myths, we will summarise the myth-busting and we will summarise the idea for action in this week's PodSheet.  You can always get that on amazingin.com, it's just the podcast page on our website, and you'll be able to find all of those.  And, Sarah, before we say goodbye, can I do a Squiggly shoutout?

Sarah Ellis: Go for it!

Helen Tupper: She's like, "Where is this going, Helen?"  I would love to do a Squiggly shoutout to Holly Tucker, who had Sarah and me on her podcast, Conversations of Inspiration, which is obviously a very kind thing to do, to just spend your time with us talking and sharing our message with the community.  But over and above that, I think that Holly is just an amazing person who supports other people to succeed. 

And I just want to recognise her for it, because it goes above and beyond talking to us on a podcast; it's sharing our work, it's advocating for us, it's just really positive about the impact. No one has to do that, and I've really appreciated how she's got behind us and encouraged us, and given us her time on our podcast, as well sharing our story with her community.  So, Holly Tucker is all kinds of amazing, follow Holly & Co, listen to our podcast conversation if you like, but probably more importantly, listen to Conversations of Inspiration more generally, because she has some really special people talking on there, and I think she's a very special person.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I think she's not someone who I knew as well as Helen before our conversation together.  And straightaway, within about ten minutes, you realise she has zero say-do gap.  So, she absolutely lives and breathes everything that she says and believes in, and you just get that sense from her so quickly when you meet her.  I was meeting her for the first time really, just chatting to her, and I was like, "Wow, she cares, she's so committed", and she really believes in what she's doing, and it does have that ripple effect, those people who bring that passion and that advocacy. Like you say, a lot of it is very selfless. 

She really uses all of her energy and her ideas to support other small businesses.  So, yeah, being part of that conversation felt like a really lovely thing, but I also felt like I learned a lot from just talking to her, which was great. Helen Tupper: Spend time in her company, even just by listening to the things that she shares.  It's well worth some time.  So, thank you so much for listening today.  Hopefully you will find all of the resources; but if you ever can't, just email us, as we said, helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com, or get in touch with us on social media.  We're @amazingif on Instagram, and you can also find Amazing If on LinkedIn as well.

Sarah Ellis: So, thank you so much for listening.  Back with you again soon.  Bye for now.