Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction

00:00:53: Breaking news!

00:02:45: What is a gremlin?

00:04:00: Some common confidence gremlins

00:08:25: What grows a gremlin?

00:14:07: The importance of caging a gremlin

00:14:59: Three exercises …

00:15:17: … 1: first thoughts

00:20:07: … 2: okay expectations

00:25:53: … 3: a gremlin shared is a gremlin halved

00:32:02: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Helen Tupper: Hi, I'm Helen.

Sarah Ellis: And I'm Sarah.

Helen Tupper: And this is a Squiggly Careers podcast, where each week we talk about a different topic to do with work and we share ideas and tools that we hope will help you, because it always helps us, to get that bit better at navigating our Squiggly Careers. 

So, this week's episode is going to be slightly different.  The topic that we're talking about is How to Cage Your Confidence Gremlins. 

And the reason that we are focusing on that is because we have an exciting new project that we have been working on behind the scenes that we want to share with you.  So, the way this is going to work is Sarah is going to do the announcement, she's going to tell you what that project is and also how you can get involved in it, so there's some really exciting ways that you can learn with us.  And then, once we've talked about that, we are going to get into some practical ideas for how you can cage your confidence gremlins.  So, Sarah, what is the news?

Sarah Ellis: If we had sophisticated sound, I feel like now we'd have a drumroll.  So, our news is that we have written a new book that you can pre-order now, called Gremlins, and we are so excited about this because it's a bit different to the books that we've done before, for three reasons.  One, they're a very different style to our first books and being honest, I think they're a bit more stylish.  They're A6, so they're quite small; they're very colourful, so we can use colour, and they are beautifully illustrated.  So we have brought those gremlins to life and I would say it's very much a royal we, because those illustrations are not done by Helen and I, they're done by a great illustrator called Mark Conlan; and then Jen, who works with us who's our Squiggly designer, has just made the books look beautiful.  So, a lot less words and a lot more images.  They're really creative, they're just really nice to spend time with.  And you don't just get one book, you actually get two short books. So, the first book is on Knowing and the second book is on Caging Your Gremlins. 

And they come in a lovely folder, all really nicely packaged and designed.  And everyone who pre-orders a copy will be invited to join us for a free How to Cage Your Confidence Gremlins workshop with Helen and I, whether that's a pro or con, I don't know, where we'll be working through ideas in the book together as a group.  So, we'll be doing our usual live drawing, we'll be doing lots of the exercises, loads of the ideas, very relaxed, very informal, so I'm already looking forward to that.  And for this book, we've been working in partnership with an organisation called the Pound Project, who are amazing.  They're really committed to creating sustainable publishing, and that means that they only print the books that are pre-ordered.  So, essentially, whatever gets pre-ordered is what gets printed and that's what gets sent out to everybody.  So, this is why pre-orders, we always say pre-orders matter, but for this book they really matter because that'll be the only way that you can get the book.

Helen Tupper: So, let's get started then with, what is a gremlin?  I feel like intuitively, we sort of get what these gremlins are, but if it helps you, the way that we think about this is they are beliefs that hold you back, they're sort of doubts that get in the way of your development, and they're things that we say to ourselves that other people can't hear.  They sound very loud in our own head, and they are really, really unhelpful.  And the thing that Sarah and I have learned from supporting people with confidence gremlins for over ten years now is that everybody has them.  It doesn't matter who we're talking to, what level they're at in an organisation, what experience they've got, everybody has a belief that holds them back and everybody would benefit from a bit of support to cage them. 

And the reason that we want to cage them is if we don't try to take control of these confidence gremlins, they can cause us to stall in our career and get stuck and they stagnate in terms of our skills; they really make us smaller and they limit our learning; and at worst, I think they can actually become your identity.  So, it stops being just this little voice in your head and it starts feeling like this reality that you can't change in your career.  And that's when those gremlins have really got control of us, and it's really, really unhelpful.

Sarah Ellis: So, let's talk about some of these common confidence gremlins.  So, like Helen said, we've all got them, and I think almost that's the first step to acceptance with these gremlins.  Everyone's got them, so we've got to learn to live with them and to make sure that they don't stop us from squiggling in a way that works for us.  So, I'm going to describe some of the ones that we hear all the time from people all across the world, and then we'll talk a bit about ours because unfortunately, we're not exempt from this.  I feel like we should be, because we get to do Squiggly Careers, maybe we shouldn't have gremlins, but obviously we absolutely do.  And the likelihood is lots of these will feel familiar.  

So, don't panic if, as I describe these, you're like, "I've got that one and that one and that one", because I sometimes feel a bit like this.  When you start listing them, you're like, "Oh my God, I've got five gremlins!"  But what you will probably find is one of these gremlins is a particularly stubborn one for you, it maybe feels like, to Helen's point, it shouts the loudest, it gets in your way most frequently.  So, as I go through them, try and maybe think about which of these do you feel really stands out in terms of actually stopping you. So, you've got the imposter gremlin, the classic gremlin, if you want to call it that, which is that sort of fear of being found out, so lots of us are familiar with that; the failure gremlin, so real fear of failure, so stops you from putting yourself forward for things in case you might fail, so a real fear of getting things wrong; fear of being put on the spot, I definitely recognise that one, I like being in control so then when someone puts you on the spot, you feel out of control, so I don't like the idea of that; the not-good-enough gremlin, a really common one, or sometimes that might sound like the not-smart-enough gremlin, I think they're slightly different things so maybe one of those feels more like a gremlin for you than the other; conflict gremlin; the judgment gremlin; the numbers gremlin; and there are lots more.  So, you might have one that feels more specific to you that we've not named there.  That doesn't make it wrong.  It's just, your gremlins are yours, and I think once you've got the awareness of the ones that you've got, you can then figure out what you're going to do about them. So, Helen, what are your two most stubborn gremlins?  Which are the ones that get in your way the most?

Helen Tupper: Oh, the bad ones.  My two most stubborn are the not-being-liked confidence gremlins, I definitely have something about likability, so that stops me from sometimes being honest about how I feel about a situation, because I think, "Oh, don't be too difficult", or challenging people, don't be too divisive.  And then the other one would be the not-knowing-enough gremlin.  That one whispered at me today, actually.

Sarah Ellis: Oh, go on! Helen Tupper: I don't want to go into too many details, but I was in a session with some very senior people and I guess it's kind of a bit judgment-y and a bit knowing-enough one, and I was like, "Am I just giving them enough expertise?"  In my mind, they were very expert people and then in order for me to be credible to them, I had to be especially expert and I was like, the thing with gremlins is, you're trying to do your best and they are talking to you at the same time.  So, you're trying to be really present and do a good job, and at the very same time, this gremlin chatter is like, "Oh, that wasn't a very good answer.  Oh, you're not giving them enough"!  You're like, "It's really unhelpful", I'm trying to do a good job and this gremlin is just shouting at me.  So, a shouty whisper.  But I had it today, which just goes to show that gremlins just pop up all the time.  That's why I think this is a skill you've got to keep working at; your gremlins are never done, you've got to keep at them.

Sarah Ellis: We say, actually, one of the things that we talk about in the book is this idea of free-range gremlins, that when they escape their cage, you think you've got them caged because you know about them, and then something prompts them to escape, and suddenly I feel like they just roam free.  And the more free-range they are, the more unhelpful they become.  And my two gremlins, which are different to yours, so that's always quite useful because we can help each other, our gremlins at least they don't multiply, they're not exactly the same, but mine are conflicts and numbers.  And I was thinking it's just always been true, both of those things have always been true.  So, I think those gremlins, they don't feel like friends, that's for sure because I don't like them, but I've got a lot of awareness about them.

I don't find it hard to see them or spot them, and I think this is the same for lots of people when it comes to gremlins.  Almost the awareness bit is less tricky, because we're all our own worst critics, right, so we see those gremlins because you're like, "Oh, they're not the parts of us that we particularly love".  And when we're quite hard on ourselves, that's usually part of our gremlin speaking.  But I always think that the difficult bit is knowing then what to do about it.  It's like, "Well, okay, I really don't like conflict and numbers sometimes really scare me.  So, okay, sure, what do I do?"  And it's worth just spotting the things that grow a gremlin, because there are certain things that when they are present, just means that your gremlin is more likely to be free-range and to get bigger. 

And those three things are people, past experiences and places. So, the people could be a group of people or a particular person, so maybe you feel like you've got your gremlin caged until someone walks in the room or in the Zoom.  That could be a senior person, could be someone who's very different to you, could be a group that you find intimidating.  Past experiences, this is where something has happened before in your career, or just generally in your life, that really makes you very nervous about that gremlin.  You've probably had a bad experience that's really stuck with you, or made a mistake that's really then influenced how you behave, so you can point to past experiences that have probably influenced that gremlin and helped that gremlin to grow.  And then places, this is your culture, your environment, your context.  So, let's say me, if I've got a conflict gremlin, and then I'm suddenly in a team or in an organisation where there is lots and lots of disagreement, obviously for me, that would mean that gremlin is probably more likely to grow.  Or I don't know, maybe the opposite would happen, but we'd have to see.  It sounds like a nightmare even thinking about it. So, it's worth knowing that yes, these are your gremlins to cage, but there are sometimes things outside of our control that make it harder, so being a little bit empathetic to your situation and surroundings, I think.  So, Helen, which one of those do you think grows your gremlin the most?

Helen Tupper: I think definitely there's a people one, I can't think of a specific person, I think I do have a generic type of person.

Sarah Ellis: I can.

Helen Tupper: Can you?  What somebody that triggers a specific?

Sarah Ellis: Yeah!

Helen Tupper: I mean don't say it; you can think of a specific person who triggers me not being liked or not knowing enough?

Sarah Ellis: Oh, no, for me, not for you!

Helen Tupper: Oh, I thought …!

Sarah Ellis: You thought I was talking about you?  Oh, no!

Helen Tupper: I thought you were going to name them and you were going to …

Sarah Ellis: No, I'm not even going to name my own one, I'm not that brave!  But no, when I think of this I'm like, "Oh, I can see them".  It's not a general thing, it's quite a specific thing for me.  So, it's interesting that we both have people, but in a different way.

Helen Tupper: I want to say my people one.  So, my people one generally is, I think very, very expert people often trigger my not-knowing-enough gremlin.  But as well as the people thing, mine is also a little bit of a place.  So, the work that Sarah and I do, a lot of it is virtual. 

So, we'll be delivering sessions and lots of people don't have their cameras on.  And then some of it's in person.  And often when I'm doing things in person, I think that feeds my confidence gremlins, because often when people are listening, they have that resting face which is just -- and I know that that means that -- I know that just because someone's resting, doesn't mean they're not engaged.  But my gremlin says like, "Oh, look at them.  That's a judgment face, they look bored, they don't like you, they don't think you know what you're talking about", and it's sort of really skewed.  I know that resting face doesn't mean that, but my gremlin will be saying that in my ear at the same time as I'm trying to deliver a session.

Sarah Ellis: That's so funny.  Yeah, I often think the people one for me is different.  So, for conflict, it's definitely been in the past, certain individuals have really meant that that confidence gremlin is literally having an absolute field day, to the point where I don't want to spend time with that person because I just know.

Helen Tupper: This isn't me is it?

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, absolutely!  No, of course it's not you.

Helen Tupper: Oh my God, that's my confidence going about not being liked!

Sarah Ellis: It's actually, given that is your gremlin, it is a surprise sometimes that we get on so well, because I won't say I'm that nice the whole time.

Helen Tupper: I've known you for ages, it's fine.

Sarah Ellis: That's true, that's true.  Age helps.  So, yeah, sometimes for me it's definitely specific people.  I think also the expert one comes in for me a bit where, say particularly for something like numbers, you know when you think, "Oh, well it's a skill set I've not got", and then when you work with someone who actually, they're not being difficult, but they are good at something that you aren't.  And I think sometimes, it just really feels like it shines a spotlight on that.  And then, that can feel quite intimidating, and then your gremlin basically starts to say things like, "Oh, you're not as good as that person".  

So, I think you can sometimes get to comparison gremlin, which is another really common one.  So, I'll be like, "I'm not as good as that person, I'm not as smart as that person, that person's doing a better job than me, they're more useful in this organisation", because you put other people on a pedestal.  That's often what happens with gremlins. When we do this in sessions, I find it so interesting how kind and empathetic people are to other people, and then sometimes they're so harsh about themselves.  Whereas, if you ask people to flip and imagine they were giving advice to someone else about their own gremlin, people can definitely do it.  But then they find it hard to do that for themselves.  I think because these gremlins are hard, they do shout, we've lived with them for a long time.  And I think we all recognise that inner monologue, like we've almost got used to it.  And then I wonder if we get a bit helpless.  We start to think, "Oh, well, it's always been there.  There's not a lot I can do about it, and I have to accept it, and maybe I've got to even embrace the gremlin.  It's just me", rather than thinking, "Oh, well actually, if I could cage it, imagine what I could do instead", you know, imagine the upside from actually caging my gremlin.

Helen Tupper: And this word "caging" is really, really important because, as you've probably heard from what Sarah and I have talked about, it's very, very hard to kill a gremlin.  It keeps coming up at different points in time in your career.  What we're trying to do is get better at spotting when that might happen and then stopping it in its tracks.  And so, this caging thing is the ability we're looking for.  And we see gremlins as just a feature, these containable, controllable things that might show up for you, rather than something that you have to fix in yourself.  This isn't about you being bad at something or gremlins meaning you're not good, it's just something that we all have and we need to get better at spotting and stopping basically.  And so, we're looking for pragmatism rather than perfection in terms of how we are going to approach stopping our gremlins getting in our way.

Sarah Ellis: So, what we thought we'd do is share three exercises that feature in the books and have a go at them out loud, so you can hear some examples of them and perhaps it can get you started too.  So, the three exercises are called First Thoughts, Okay Expectations and A Gremlin Shared is a Gremlin Halved.

Helen Tupper: So, we're going to start with First Thoughts, and this is a series of six different questions that can help you to surface your gremlin.  So, for some people we might say, "Oh, the good-enough or the comparison gremlin", and you might be nodding along straight away and going, "Oh, that's me".  And for some other people, it might be useful to just go through these first thoughts and think about, "What's the gremlin like and when is it showing up?"  So, we'd recommend that you spend a bit of time with these questions.  I'm going to ask them to Sarah so you can hear what some of the responses might sound like, and we'll also summarise these in the PodSheet too so that you've got them to answer for yourself after you've listened today. Question number one then Sarah, "At work I worry most about…?

Sarah Ellis: Whether I'm adding enough value, being useful, doing the right things.

Helen Tupper: I'm just going to leave Sarah's responses there, rather than comment on them, everybody, I'm just going to leave it there!  "A mistake I've made that stayed with me is…?

Sarah Ellis: When I didn't properly understand something and I was working with someone really senior, and rather than calling them or taking the time to really understand, I just bombarded them with information and hoped for the best, and I'm still mortified to this day that I did that.  And I suspect they gave it no more than 30 seconds' thought.  But they definitely told me that it's not what they needed.  And I imagine if someone did that to me now, I'd also find it very frustrating.  So, I've never forgot that.

Helen Tupper: Fill in these gaps, "I wish I was as confident as … gap 1 … because … gap 2 …"

Sarah Ellis: So, I wish I was as confident as Christine Armstrong, because I feel that she is never afraid to share her point of view with the world.

Helen Tupper: I'm trying so hard not to comment!  Okay, question four, "A doubt I have about myself that might surprise other people is …?"

Sarah Ellis: I mean, I don't know if they're surprising for a start; that might surprise other people?  I still get nervous talking in front of large groups of people and it's something I've done loads of and I love and really enjoy, but my heart still goes really fast before I do it, but I also really enjoy it.

Helen Tupper: "The situation at work that scares me the most is …?"

Sarah Ellis: Someone outright disagreeing with me in a way that was provocative and in a very conflict-y way.  You know, if somebody did do the whole, "Well, I just think Squiggly Careers is a waste of time, and I get it is a bit of a flash-in-the-pan idea, but obviously it won't be useful for much longer or for many organisations".  That would scare me.

Helen Tupper: I was just thinking about a conversation that I had where someone was a bit like that.  It's so hard!  Okay, last question, so I don't talk about that one, "My first thoughts on the gremlin I'm grappling with are …?"

Sarah Ellis: I think the main one that I still have to work the hardest at is still conflict, because I've actually worked really hard to cage the old numbers gremlin and I'm in quite a good place with that.  I'm quite proud of the progress that I've made on the numbers one and almost a bit at peace with it, I think.  Whereas, the conflict one, I can still see and spot things that I don't do, that I want to do and that get me very frustrated because of that gremlin.

Helen Tupper: So, well done.

Sarah Ellis: I feel like that was like therapy!

Helen Tupper: Well done!  I do think that when you start any work on confidence, a "well done" is actually quite important and you might need to "well done" yourself.  But I think the problem is they've been hiding in your head for a very long time, and so actually just taking some time to go, "What does this sound like, and how is this showing up, and what are my first thoughts on this?" I think it is quite confronting, but you've got to confront your confidence Gremlin, it doesn't want you to do that.  So, these questions are a gentle way to start that process. 

So, well done, Sarah, for sharing them, and obviously everyone else, you've got to do it just for yourself.  Sarah's done it with lots and lots and lots of people listening.  The other thing that I was going to say is that Sarah mentioned the word "pride" there when she was talking about her numbers gremlin, and that's something that we talk about in the book as well, about how important pride is as part of this process.  And I think for Sarah, just recognising that she's got two main gremlins, and as a result of lots of things that we're going to talk to you about, one has got a lot less significant and smaller, should hopefully give Sarah some confidence that she can do the same with the conflict gremlin too.

Sarah Ellis: Let's hope so.  So, let's talk now about Okay Expectations, because I love this action because it is pragmatic and realistic, and I think we need to be both of those things when we're talking about caging our gremlins.  And one of the phrases that Helen and I often use, I think, sums this up perfectly, is when we are caging our gremlins and kind of going through this process, this is not you at your best, this is you doing your best.  So, this is hard stuff to do well.  And so, I think if we start with an expectation of we're going to go from zero to gremlin-caging hero, you are basically setting yourself up to fail and you won't do anything differently.  We've got to go, what's okay; what's okay in this scenario; essentially, what is better than doing nothing; what is better than just letting our gremlin take charge?  We are trying to be in charge of our gremlin, not the other way around. So, when we're trying to set okay expectations, it is useful to start off with what happens when your gremlin is in charge.  So, I'll give one example and then I'll ask Helen for one as well, so you can hear a couple of different ones.  So, for me for example, when my gremlin is in charge, if someone challenges me in a conversation, then I shut down, stop listening, and usually start sweating, to be honest.  Helen, how about you?  What's an if/then when your gremlin is in charge, rather than the other way around?

Helen Tupper: So, if I think about the not-knowing-enough gremlin, if that gremlin of not being expert or knowing enough is in charge, then what I will tend to do is I'll over-explain something, because in my mind I'm thinking more is better.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, yeah, good, really good.  So, the very important point here is, your if stays the same, your if isn't going anywhere.  So, in an ideal scenario, I don't want anyone to challenge me in a conversation, but obviously that's going to keep happening.  In an ideal scenario, Helen might go, "Well, I want to be the most expert person in every room", but that's never going to happen.  So, I think we've just got to accept, you've got to go, "Okay, well that if scenario will stay", so that stays the same.  What we need is a new then for when you are in charge of your gremlin, rather than the other way around.  But that new then needs to have that okay expectations in mind.  Because I might go, "Right, if someone's challenging in a conversation, ideally what I want my new then to be is for me to be constructively challenging, to give as good as I get, to really enjoy the provocation and to feel like I'm part of a really constructive debate". 

And then inevitably, if that's what my new then was, obviously that's never going to happen.  It's so far away from my personality, you just can't imagine it. But you might see that in other people, and it's actually quite an easy mistake to make to think, "Well, what I need to do…".  So, let's say I saw Helen being amazing in challenging conversations, what I might think is, "What I need to do is just be more Helen".  But you can't do that.  It's almost too far from your authentic starting point.  So, to give an example, when I'm in charge of my gremlin, if someone is challenging a conversation, my new then is I ask an open, curious question.  Sometimes, just asking one open, curious question is better than nothing.  It's better than just completely shutting down and stopping listening.  If I can ask a few, even better.  And that's what having okay expectations of myself looks like in those sort of high-pressure moments where, don't forget, your gremlin will be shouting at you.  It'll be shouting, "You hate this, you're not good at this, it's some conflict, beep beep", I feel like it makes loud noises.  And so, if you can do anything different, you're actually doing really well.  What would a new then be for you Helen?

Helen Tupper: I think it might be, so the if is, if someone is more expert than me and my old then was like, "Just keep giving them more of what you know, just keep proving that you know stuff!" then I think my new then could be to invite discussion, so just basically stop at a certain point, like, "Don't keep going, Helen", and then be like, "What's your perspective, or what's your experience of this, or what other ideas have we got as a group?" not feeling like I have to sort of out-expert them.  That's not really what I'm trying to do, but that's sort of what my gremlin wants me to do.  But actually, just inviting a discussion so I can hear more of other people's perspectives and having the confidence for that to happen, I think that would be a much better then.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, it could be invite and involve.  And actually, the reason that I kind of summarise that there is I think often when you're trying to come up with these actions, because these are shortcuts for your brain, it will help you to behave in a new way by default.  So, if you can make them memorable and short, like involve and invite, or invite and involve, either way, if that's all Helen's got to remember in that moment where she's like, "Oh, the experts are here.  Okay, invite and involve, invite and involve".  Whereas, I suddenly go, "Oh, this person's actually a bit more challenging than I anticipated.  Ask an open question, ask an open question".  And that's it, that's all I ever think, "Ask an open question", because it just keeps me in the conversation versus withdrawing from the conversation. You might find you need to experiment with a few different actions before you find the right one for you.  I tried quite a lot of things on conflict that didn't work, usually because they were too far, I think, from just who I am.  Once I got to, "Ask an open question", which sounds so simple, doesn't it, you're like, "How did you not get there sooner?"  But because this is hard for you, it does often, I think, take a few attempts.  So, please don't worry if you do try something and either you just don't do it or it doesn't work, because I do think this is a bit of a process of exploring and experimentation.

Helen Tupper: And the third idea from our Gremlins book we wanted to share with you is that A Gremlin Shared is a Gremlin Halved.  And hopefully you'll have heard this a little bit between Sarah and me.  So, we've been talking and supporting each other with our gremlins for quite a long time and what that means is, we know situations when those gremlins are likely to grow, and we know things are likely to be difficult for either of us to do and we can really support each other in those situations.  And so, when you share your gremlin with somebody you realise that you're not alone and that taking some action isn't as awful as you might imagine it in your head, and we're really reducing the power that that gremlin has over you.  I think, just keep thinking, the more you keep this in your head, the harder it is to stop it.  But the more that you share it with other people, the more power you have over that gremlin and the more that you can stop it getting in the way of your growth and what you want to do at work.

Sarah Ellis: And we sometimes do this exercise in our workshops where we put people together who don't know each other very well, but probably work in the same company, but perhaps across different countries; and we ask them, "Go into a breakout room, share one gremlin you've got and maybe how it gets in your way".  And you can see initially people look a bit intimidated because it is quite a vulnerable thing to ask people to do.  And then, when everyone comes back from those breakout rooms, I always say, "In one word, describe how that felt.  Like, having that conversation how did that feel?"  And pretty much everybody just says, "Reassuring".  "Oh, it's reassuring, I feel like I'm not alone".  As Helen described, people actually always come back from those conversations feeling really positive and really upbeat, because I think it's one thing to say everybody has gremlins, but I think it is another thing to hear everyone talking about their gremlins.

Helen Tupper: I think it's like they just get a little bit lighter.  And to me, it all makes sense, because gremlins are heavy to hold, right?  They're heavy to have in your head.  So, getting them out of your head, I think it just makes you feel just a bit lighter.  I feel it myself, and I see it in other people.  The other reason that it is useful to talk about your gremlins is something we talk about in the book, called mirroring.  So, I think what your gremlins do is they create a bit of a false filter on how you're showing up in a situation, like me saying, "Oh, I'm presenting and everyone's got a resting face and that face, to me, means that they're not interested in me", and that's what your gremlin will do to you because it's what it wants you to believe.  

But when you share your gremlin with other people, they can kind of mirror that situation to you from their perspective, which is probably quite different to what your false filter might be saying. So, Sarah might be going, "Oh, no, Helen, I saw loads of people writing stuff down", or, "Did you not see the people that were nodding along when you made that particular point?" or, "That quote, I saw someone writing that down their phone".  And your gremlin didn't want you to see any of that stuff, because that challenges what it's telling you.  So, talking to somebody else really creates a different mirror to a situation and it's a very helpful bit of information that helps you challenge your gremlin.

Sarah Ellis: So, I appreciate not every one of you might be in a workshop where you get the chance to talk about your gremlins.  So, two specific suggestions of people who you might want to look for to go and have these conversations with.  I usually think you talk to people you know quite well, certainly who you trust and who you feel are supportive.  But I think there are two almost separate groups of people here who could be useful in different ways.  One is someone who is good at your gremlin.  So, I look at someone and think, "They seem to be amazing at having difficult, challenging conversations.  Oh, wow, I could learn from that person".  Or, someone who you think could support you to cage that gremlin. 

So, that could be a manager, a peer, a mentor, someone who's very much on your side and wants you to succeed.  And then you might be thinking, "Well, that's great, but what would that conversation actually sound like?  Do I just turn up and be like, 'Gremlins, I've got some, help me'?  Probably not". I think if you can bring this to life, it might sound something like, "One of the things I find hard is having challenging conversations.  It's stopping me from offering my opinion in meetings, and then I end up feeling really frustrated.  I've noticed that you're really good at managing difficult conversations, or conversations where there's lots of different points of view. 

I just wondered what ideas or advice you'd give me, because that's an area I'm really trying to improve in".  And I think, I mean, do it in your own words and do it in your own way, but we put a couple of Squiggly scripts in the second Gremlins book, just because I think it's quite useful as a starting point, even if you critique it and rewrite it in your own way, because I do think this has to feel like something you would naturally say, and I wrote that so that feels right for me. Also, it depends who you're talking to.  Inevitably, it'll be more informal and you're not just going to say all of that probably in one monologue as I just did there, because it feels like you've just stood up and done a speech about your gremlins. 

But I have always been surprised by just how much your gremlins are more hidden than you imagine.  So, sometimes I've spoken to people about my gremlins and they are surprised and I just thought they were so obvious; and secondly, people really, really want to help you to cage these gremlins, because no one likes the idea that you're stopping yourself from being as brilliant as you can be because you've got this annoying gremlin chipping away at who you are and how amazing you can be.  So, I think people are really supportive.  And don't forget, it's so much easier to support someone when it's not your gremlin. 

That's why I like talking to people who are good at my gremlin, because I just think, "Well, this is not them, this is their strength.  So, they're just going to give me a whole other perspective", as well as those supportive people too.  But I honestly think the more you talk about them, the more it just becomes something everyone's got, it's really normal, it's a kind of everyday thing versus this massive thing that kind of goes unsaid and unnoticed.

Helen Tupper: So, we hope that hearing those three different ideas for how you can get to know your gremlin, and also get that gremlin caged, have been useful.  It is really just a teaser of what is in Gremlins, because we just wanted to give you a bit of an insight.  And I think if there are, I guess, two main messages for you to think about now, one is the fact that everyone has gremlins.  It is really, really normal to have a gremlin, so don't beat yourself up about it, it's normal to have them.  But the other thing is, they don't have to get in your way. 

This is something we can do something about, we can all create a cage for our gremlins and we hope that we have created some really useful support to help you to do that. So, if you want to buy the book, please, please do, please support this project that we've been working on.  Again, the website is poundproject.co.uk/shop/gremlins, and we would love to see you at that virtual session so that we can dive in a bit deeper and share more of these ideas for action and answer any questions that you've got about you and your gremlins.  We're just trying to surround you with as much support we can around a skill that we know a lot of people struggle with, so we hope that is helpful for you and your development.

Sarah Ellis: So, that's everything for this week.  As always, thank you for listening and good luck caging those gremlins.  Bye for now.

Helen Tupper: Bye everyone.