Timestamps

00:00:00: Announcement!

00:00:58: Introduction

00:04:58: Where you hear corporate phrases

00:06:14: The conscious competence model…

00:06:38: … stage 1: unconscious incompetence

00:07:25: … stage 2: conscious incompetence

00:08:04: … stage 3: conscious competence

00:08:38: … stage 4: unconscious competence

00:09:37: Squiggly swaps…

00:10:00: … 1: from plans to possibilities

00:12:58: … 2: from steps to moves or roles

00:15:15: … 3: from titles to talents

00:20:46: … 4: from destinations to a direction

00:25:25: … 5: from progression equals promotion to general progression

00:30:19: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Name Surname: Hi everybody, it's Helen from the Squiggly Careers podcast and before today's episode starts, I want to let you know about some news that Sarah and I are really excited about.  Ten years ago in October was the moment that Squiggly started.  We sat down together, a Squiggle was drawn on a napkin, and this idea to help people with their careers came to life.  Since then, things have grown a bit and we would love to celebrate that growth with you. 

On 17 October, we will be holding Squiggly Careers Live in London.  The show starts at 7.00pm.  We've got four brilliant guests who are going to be talking to us about meaning, motivation and money.  Come and join us.  Tickets are limited, they are £30 each and there will be a chance to connect and talk to each other after the event as well.  All the details are on our website, amazingif.com/squiggly, so we hope to see you there, and now let's get on with today's episode.

Sarah Ellis: Hi, I'm Sarah.

Helen Tupper: And I'm Helen.

Sarah Ellis: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast, where every week we share some ideas and some actions that we hope will help you to navigate that Squiggly Career with a bit more confidence and control.

Helen Tupper: And one of the ways we try to give you a bit more control is we take our episodes and we turn it into PodSheets.  These are practical tools to help you to take action.  You can get them on our website, amazingif.com, and it's linked in the show notes as well.  And in addition to that, if you would like a bit more Squiggly support with the topics we talk about, you can always join us at PodPlus.  We host a free 30-minute session every Thursday morning.  

So, it's 9.00am UK time, you'll have to translate that into whatever time zone you're in, but it's always free.  It's a brilliant community of people, and you get the opportunity to sort of ask questions, we bring to life some of the models that we talk about.  I think it just gives people a bit of a boost who happen to like learning about their career.  So, if that is you, you might want to come along.  And like I said, all the info for that is on amazingif.com or just email us; we're helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com.

Sarah Ellis: So this week, we're talking about how to lose ladder-like language.  So, why are we taking on this topic?  Well, Helen and I are getting increasingly interested in how the words that we use at work impacts our reality.  And I think so often, we're not conscious of how corporate language or jargon, which we probably have talked about before, creeps into our conversations.  So, we're all real familiar with some of the classics, "We'll take this offline; I'll put a pin in it; the parking lot; reaching out", I'm never a big fan of that one.  Helen, any of those that you hear?

Helen Tupper: Well, now you say it, Sarah, I heard you say one earlier in the meeting we had before this!

Sarah Ellis: Did you?

Helen Tupper: I did.  And I thought, I was like, "bang".

Sarah Ellis: You're going to save that.  You're like, "Oh, I've literally got to talk to you in a minute on the podcast.  I'm just going to scribble that one down!"

Helen Tupper: I made a little smirk that you didn't see.  But do you know what, Sarah?  I think what we should do is, "Keep the powder dry".

Sarah Ellis: Oh, yeah, I did say that!

Helen Tupper: Yeah!

Sarah Ellis: I do quite like that phrase, actually.  Do you think that's a corporate phrase, "Keep the powder dry?"

Helen Tupper: Do you know what?  I think it is probably.  You know we talked about warlike language ages ago with John from LEON?  I mean, I haven't looked into the origins of the phrase, but it sounds a bit military.

Sarah Ellis: Do you think?

Helen Tupper: Like the gunpowder dry.  I don't know, I mean, I haven't looked at it.  What do you think it means?

Sarah Ellis: I don't know, I can't help but think about talcum powder!

Helen Tupper: I don't think it's about talcum powder, but I think it might be about gunpowder and how you have to keep it dry.  I mean I could be totally making this up.  I can't wait to look at this afterwards.  But anyway, I would suggest that that was an example of corporate language that's just not needed, but I loved you saying it!

Sarah Ellis: We work really hard in Amazing If to try and call each other a bit, in a sort of friendly and encouraging way, when we do use language that we feel might be getting in our way that isn't simple and straightforward.  I think that we said, "Creeps" for a reason.  I don't think we choose to go "Reaching out" or, "Offline".  None of us want to be saying these things, but they just become the common words that we hear.  So, we all just start using them and then at some point, you forget about it.  So, there's general corporate language, but what we're going to focus on today is specifically ladderlike language around our careers. There's a great quote from a philosopher who says, "The words that we use frame how we see the world". 

And we think, if we keep framing our careers using lots of ladderlike words, maybe without even realising it, it sort of takes us back to that linear staircase.  So, we might be trying to adopt Squiggly, but then maybe we're saying, "Steps" or, "Career plans", or we're asking someone in an interview, "Where do you see yourself in five years' time?"  And it fixes us and sort of forces us to go back to that career ladder.  So, I think it limits our learning, and it also probably limits the quality of the conversations that we have about our careers, when we're stuck in using some of these words that have been used for a long time in lots of organisations.

Helen Tupper: And it's useful to reflect on, where do these words show up for you?  So, some example places might be in career conversations, is that where this ladderlike language might be creeping in; interviews, like Sarah mentioned, one of those very common, ladderlike, career questions; it might come out in your LinkedIn profile or your recommendations, you know, "I stepped up into this new position", for example, you might write that about yourself.  It also comes up in a lot of self-help books, you know, "What's the next step on your career?"  I'm always like, "Oh, can we not replace that?" Where I really see it, it drives me mad every time, is in the media, when they talk about often senior people's career moves, except they don't call it a career move. 

So they don't go, "Oh, the CEO has made a fascinating career move into --", I don't know, being a zookeeper or whatever it is, they don't say that.  They go, "CEO… has stepped down into a position".  And every time I see that, I'm like, "Oh, your words are influencing so many people".  I want to get in touch with that journalist, but I feel like it's passive aggressive or actively aggressive; I can't decide which!  Send them a copy of Squiggly with the Squiggly Career glossary and try to kind of get them to do the swap.  But yeah, when I see that in those places, I just want to take out a highlighter or a retro bit of Tippex and rewrite it for them.

A model that I find really useful, whenever I'm trying to do any kind of change, behaviour change or language change, I always find the conscious competence model useful.  It's an oldie, it's from the 1970s, by Noel Burch, but it really helps me to see where am I at in terms of how I'm thinking or behaving at the moment, and how can I get to where I want to be?  So, there are four stages of the conscious competence model. The first stage is actually where Sarah was, she didn't realise that she was saying, "Keep the powder dry" earlier.  So that is where you are, it's harsh language everyone, but that is where you are unconsciously incompetent.  So, you don't even realise what you're saying.  You're not trying to use necessarily ladderlike language, you might not even like the idea of it, but you kind of don't know that you're doing it.  Corporate language, ladderlike language, it's just become part of the pattern of your conversation. 

So, that's often where lots of people start.  It's why feedback can be really important, because until somebody says to you, "Oh, Sarah, did you know you were saying that?" or, "Helen, maybe there might be a better way that you could do this"; until someone perhaps calls it out, it's hard for you to become conscious of it.  So, stage one is often, "I'm unconsciously incompetent, I don't even know that I'm saying this". Then, once you become aware, you become consciously incompetent.  So you might still say, "Oh, what's your next step?" or, "Really interested in seeing your career plan", or whatever it is, you might still say those things, but you almost stop yourself.  I do this with open and closed questions; I'm consciously incompetent with my questions. 

So, I know it is better to coach people by asking them an open question like, "What are you interested in doing?" but sometimes I might start closed like, "Do you want to do this?" and I have to stop myself, or once I said it, reframe it, because I'm consciously incompetent.  I know that that's not the best way to have that conversation. Then, we move on to the third level of the model, which is where you become consciously competent.  So, you know what the language is, like what Squiggly Career language sounds like, or what it looks like, and you try very, very hard to put that language into place, like in your emails, on your CV maybe, in your career conversations.  You might even have a bit of a Squiggly Career script, where you've kind of got that language that you can really focus on saying it, but you are trying quite hard; it is quite an intentional act to use that, you're very aware of it.

But then, what happens over time is you get to the last part of the model, and this is where the change really sticks.  This is where you become unconsciously competent.  So, you have completely moved away from ladderlike language and you've completely swapped to Squiggly, and you don't even think about it any more.  You just happen to talk about possibilities instead of plans; you happen to talk about, "Career curiosity", instead of, "Fixing your future", or whatever; it's just natural to the way that you talk about your career.  And I find it a very useful way of thinking like, "Where am I now?  Perhaps I'm unconsciously incompetent and I need to get a bit of feedback. 

Or perhaps I'm aware these words, but I still sort of flip between the two and I need to have maybe a Squiggly script or a bit of a career glossary that might help me with my career conversation". So, maybe have a think about what that might look like for you, consciously, unconsciously, a few like words there.  It might be easier if you look at the PodSheet for this episode.  We will put that model on there, so you can maybe look at it and reflect on where you might be.

Sarah Ellis: So, what we thought might be useful is to talk through some Squiggly swaps.  So, what are some of the ladderlike words that we hear all the time, and I'm sure we're guilty of saying some of the time too, and what might we say instead, both to ourselves, which we framed as a coach-yourself-question, but also what might we say to someone else, so a coaching question, in case you're having career conversations or mentoring chats? The first one is moving from plans, so career plans that fix us to a future, to possibilities, which feels much more open-ended, adaptable, flexible and curious.  So, this would sound like, if you're asking yourself a coach-yourself-question, "What three possibilities am I intrigued by?", rather than saying, "What is my career plan?" 

And a coaching question might sound like, "Who could I connect you with for a curious career conversation?" so actually helping somebody to go and explore their possibilities.  And I think this is an interesting one, because I am somebody who loves to plan, I respond really well to planning.  I'm naturally organised, I'm very future focused, and I am somebody who has developed, in my time, lots of career plans, because I think it was an attempt by me, however clumsy it might have been, to take ownership and control. So, it did come from a positive place around career and career development, but I was very binary about, "These are the exact job titles I want to do.  And then in this very specific timeframe, this thing is going to happen".  And it felt like a tick-list, I think, or a bit of a checklist of like, "Here is my plan", and more like a blueprint, like this is a blueprint for what's going to happen in my career, at what time, in what way, and it assumes a perfect world. 

And also, it does assume that you can control everything, that you're going to be successful in every role that you apply for, that what you enjoy right now is what you're always going to enjoy.  And again, it just takes you back, doesn't it, to that idea of like, you're going up this staircase or you're climbing this ladder.  And so, I think they just don't feel flexible enough. 

Having this idea of a plan just doesn't have that flexibility. But we also know we don't want to leave our careers to chance.  We want to have this kind of "create, don't wait" mindset.  And so just hoping for the best, certainly if you're someone like me and you love a plan, you're like, "Well, that doesn't feel acceptable either", and that's where I think possibilities works well.  So, I've used this in career conversations in organisations ,where maybe a leader is saying to me, "Where do you see yourself?" or maybe asking me quite a plan-like question.  And rather than saying a job title or role, I would often respond with, "Well, there are a few possibilities that I am interested in.  I think my strengths would lend themselves well to this sort of role, or I've really enjoyed doing… and any move or role that would help me to do more of that would always be really interesting for me". What I found by talking possibilities versus plans, I think also it takes pressure away from conversations, because I think sometimes managers and directors think you go to those conversations, and they're expected to make some of these things happen; that whole making your development dependent on somebody else. 

But I think as soon as I started talking possibilities, everybody relaxes a bit because it's just much more open, we're having much more of a two-way conversation, and it just feels like you're just exploring, which is always a good place to be.

Helen Tupper: So the next Squiggly swap that we would suggest is moving from steps, so the idea that you step up or step down, like I mentioned that you often see in the newspapers, to moves or roles.  So if I kind of frame that in a statement, so it feels maybe more familiar, the ladderlike one might sound like, "Sarah's next step in the organisation is…" and a more Squiggly swap way of talking about that would be, "Some of the roles that Sarah is currently exploring are…" or, "Some of the moves that Sarah has talked about that she would like to make include..." The step up, step down, it implies that the only way is up basically, which often limits a conversation very quickly and gets you kind of stuck on a ladder, because if that more senior position isn't possible, then it becomes really restrictive people's career. 

Even though sometimes I've spoken to lots of people that have made moves back to things they've done before, and they found that really, really enjoyable, when we frame it as stepping down or stepping back, it feels a bit like failure.  And so people just completely discount it.  When we're talking about what moves would you like to make, or what roles would you be interested in progressing into or exploring, then we take away the judgment about almost the direction of that development.  It's not saying up is good and back is bad, it's saying, "Actually, in a Squiggly Career, you can develop in different directions, and what we're just trying to work out is what's right for you right now". Any time we can take judgment away from the career moves that people are making, we will open up that conversation. 

When we restrict it to, one way is good and the other is bad, often people aren't honest about what they want from work and they tell us what they think we want to hear and that's never a very good basis for a career conversation.  So, a coach-yourself-question is, "What role would I do if I knew I couldn't fail?"  Again, that takes out the fear and judgment away.  And the coaching question that you can ask someone else is, "What roles would you like to try out for a week if you have the chance?".  So again, we're not trying to say you have to do this forever and this is going to determine the direction of your development for the entirety of your career, we're just trying to unlock that openness and that Squiggly language and those coaching questions are a really good way of doing that.

Sarah Ellis: So, our next Squiggly swap is moving from titles to talents.  Job titles now, I mean, no one can understand anyone's job title anymore.  I think the variety and meaning of job titles has disappeared out the window, to be honest.  And even if they are relatively accurate, they do only share a very small slice of who you are and what you do.  I'm never sure about it, but some people don't even put their titles on LinkedIn anymore and I can really understand why people do that. 

I think I can't quite work out an alternative that I feel comfortable with, but I have seen people just describe themselves as like creator, learner, entrepreneur, you know, they sort of use more descriptive words rather than going, "My job title is Head of Marketing", or whatever it might be. I think we can get fixed on titles, I think often not because people -- I mean, maybe sometimes people want the title, but it's because it's a default, it implies a certain level and a certain layer within an organisation.  And then I think people's status and identity gets quite wrapped up in these titles.  And I think I've been guilty of this before.  When you're in really big organisations that do feel very layered and quite hierarchical, you just feel like your worth increases depending on however big that title is. So, letting go of some of these areas, I think, like doing some of these Squiggly swaps, I think we shouldn't underestimate how hard that can be if you've attached your identity to one of these.  I let go of titles quite a long time ago now, but I don't think that was an easy process for me because I think I'd conditioned myself to be like, "Well, that's what's important.  I am more important, I am better at my job, I am worth more the bigger that job title is". 

Whereas, I think talents paint much more of a picture of who we are.  We are all talented, we've all got different talents, it's our skills, it's our strengths, it's the talents that we want to make stronger, it's the things that we build our reputation for and want to be recommended for, and I think it just shows more of what we've got to give and that we've all got loads of things. Your talents is probably a really long list, but there are probably three or four that you really want to stand out and to show up throughout your career, sometimes described as the red thread or the things that you might have in common.  And when I think about my talents doing very different kinds of jobs in very different kinds of organisations, there are at least a couple where they're really consistent. 

I think it's often a much more useful way to think about who you are and what you've got to give. So, a coach-yourself-question, we've actually cheated here and got two around talents.  The first one is, "What do I enjoy the most about my week?" and the second one is, "What gives me the most energy?  Now, the reason we kept both of those in is we reflected when we were testing these questions out on ourselves, that sometimes enjoyment is different to energy.  So, Helen, if you were answering that question, maybe thinking about your week this week, what are you enjoying the most, but also what's given you the most energy; how different are they?

Helen Tupper: Yeah, they're really different.  So the things that I enjoy the most about my week.

Sarah Ellis: Talking to me?

Helen Tupper: No, that gives me energy, those are different things.  My enjoyment one is often getting stuff done.  Like at the end, I'll be like, "Oh, I love that, I got that done, I got that project done, I got that thing set up, I've come up with that idea, I've got it progressed".  It's often about moving things on, getting stuff done. 

The thing that gives me the most energy, the thing that excites me more, that fuels me would be, and we don't get to do this every week, to be honest, but when you and I get a chunky amount of time together and we'll be thinking about something brand new, and almost like a bit of creative tension between us, I love that when we're like, "Oh, what about this?" and then we listen to each other and we get to a better outcome.  That gives me so much energy, because I think that takes us further forward into the future. I enjoy getting stuff done, but taking our business further into the future gives me energy.  They're quite different things, so I think when you're thinking about your talents, they are probably two of my talents.  Like getting stuff done is one of my talents; creating stuff for the future, and exploring and prototyping is another one of my talents.  And so, by asking those questions, I'm able to identify some slightly different things, and I think that's why it's useful to ask yourself both.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I think you get more awareness that you can figure out what does that mean for you; what's the "so what?"  When I was reflecting on it, I also get to really different answers, because I was thinking one of the things that I enjoy the most about a week is always when I have time alone, time by myself.

Helen Tupper: "Leave me alone!"

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, time by myself to work on something or develop something or write something.  So, if I think about moments of enjoyment, it's always like deep focus work by myself, I enjoy that.  And it may or may not have an obvious outcome.  Sometimes it might be a, "Well, here's a proposal", but sometimes it might just be, "I've put some ideas on a bit of paper".  But what gives me most energy is always with other people.  So, I actually get loads of energy from when I've got a group of people together from an organisation, maybe we're doing a career development programme.  I'm doing one this week with one organisation where we're running their careers week, and they're 45-minute sessions every day, and they give me so much energy, and there's loads of people.

I suppose the thing that gives me energy there is, I'm taking energy from those people, because they're all contributing loads, they're really enthusiastic.  So, I am enjoying it as well, but it's a different feeling, I think sometimes, enjoyment and energy.  Maybe they'll be the same for some people, but I just think good to see if you can spot any distinctions.  And then a coaching question here would be, "What strengths do you want to be recommended for?"

Helen Tupper: Our fourth Squiggly swap is moving from the language of destinations, so maybe that's like naming a role that you're definitely going to do in the future, to a direction, a sense of where your Squiggly Career might be taking you.  And I have to sort of red-flag myself here, but also as I'm saying the word, red flag, I'm like, "Oh gosh, is red flag corporate language?  Is that one of those things that I'm now consciously incompetent?"

Sarah Ellis: We just basically need to stop speaking!

Helen Tupper: We need to stop speaking!  The Squiggly Careers podcast has gone silent for the last ten minutes --

Sarah Ellis: As we try to work out whether "keep your powder dry" or "red flags" are actually military terms, which I think on the powder dry one, you were actually right.

Helen Tupper: Do you think red flag is?

Sarah Ellis: I don't know.

Helen Tupper: Oh my gosh, where's red flag come from?  Oh no!  Okay, just bear with us everybody because we're learning things.

Sarah Ellis: We're learning things.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, exactly, we're learning too.  But I'm going to red flag myself, because I was having a career conversation with somebody today, actually, and I think I had unintentionally fixed someone to a destination.  And the reason this is important is even, you know, Sarah and I talk about this stuff all the time, and we still make mistakes with this stuff; we're still trying to make sure that we get it right too.  But I had talked to somebody about a role that they might be interested in the future and how we enabled the work that they were doing to take them towards that particular position. 

Again, like most of us who influence other people's career development, it was done with the best intent, like I want to help that person to grow.  But actually, fixing that person to a destination that might have come up in a conversation became a little bit restrictive. They said to me, "Oh, actually, Helen, I'd like to think a bit more broadly about where I could be at that point in time, I don't need to attach myself to that role".  And I was like, "Oh, I've fallen into a ladderlike trap with the intention of helping someone".  But actually, over time, that doesn't become that helpful, because all of your conversations sort of orientate towards that destination, and it narrows the conversation down.  So, keeping people towards a direction is quite useful. 

And just in case it's helpful, the way that I ended up pivoting that conversation for that person was, I just stopped talking about a job title because obviously, as we said, title's not helpful, and a particular destination, and I started talking about the mix of their responsibilities.  I found that a much more helpful way like, "By that point in time, if there was a ratio of the different work that you were doing, what would you want that ratio to look like in terms of responsibility?  How would you want that to change over time?"  And then actually, the role that someone's in becomes irrelevant, to be honest.  It's more about, what are the responsibilities you want to do, and how do we shape a role or position or spot projects that could help you to do that? So practically, that's how I evolved that conversation, when I was consciously incompetent.  A couple of questions that might help you in this particular area.  So, the coach-yourself-question, "How do I know that I'm heading in the right direction?" so, useful to think about what are the signals that would mean that you're Squiggling in a way that's working for you. 

And a coaching question that you could ask somebody else is, "Whose career impact are you inspired by?"  So, it's not what job would you like to do or whose role do you admire; it's whose impact are you inspired by?  It just takes people a little bit broader when they're reflecting on this particular area.

Sarah Ellis: I like this question because I was thinking about it for myself, selfishly.  I also think pride is quite useful when you're thinking about direction, because I think doing what we do now is so different from when we were both in very big organisations, where I think you perhaps have more natural signals, you're surrounded by more signals about whether you're heading in the right direction for you.  Whereas I think suddenly, when you're doing your own thing, it's so much up to you to sort of set your own direction.  There's nothing surrounding you, no structure surrounding you. 

I often think about, well, what will make me proud?  And that's how I know I'm heading in the right direction, if I'm doing work and having an impact that I feel proud of. What pride means is different for different people.  It might be, you know, the ways that you help other people, it might be the type of work that you do, it might be how often you're doing things that really stretch you or scare you, I don't know, exploring and discovering you've got potential that you didn't know you had.  All those things would make you feel proud.  So, sometimes pride can also be a helpful area here, I think.

Helen Tupper: I quite like, but I thought it was a bit daunting perhaps, I quite like, "What do you want your legacy to look like?"

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, that is daunting.

Helen Tupper: It's quite daunting, isn't it?  If you'd asked me that 20 years ago, I'd be like, "I don't know".  But now, and maybe it's because of what we do, now I kind of think I could just think about that for a little bit.  But that's probably for a particular person at a particular point in time in their career.  But all these questions will get you towards thinking about directions and not fixing yourself to a single destination, which is exactly what we're hoping for in Squiggly Careers.

Sarah Ellis: And last, but very much not least, because I think this is often the toughest one, so when we ask this question to people all around the world, I would say this usually ends up being the winner for the one that people find the hardest to let go of and do a bit of unlearning and relearning; and that's moving away from progression equals promotion, so promotion being the only way to progress, to progression generally, so being able to grow and being able to develop in lots of different directions, promotion being just one way that we can progress. So, it's a tough one often for people to get their heads around because initially they're like, "Well, if it's not promotion, what is it?"  I always find it interesting though, is when I then do ask people for this, I'm like, "Okay, so what are all other than promotion?  Let's now create together all of the other ways that we can progress in our career. 

Let's see just how many we can come up with".  And I set the task as a sort of quantity over quality one.  I'm like, "I want as many as we can come up with".  People are better than they give themselves credit for.  I usually get 16, 20 different ways that you can progress.  And the more people go, the more ideas they come up with. So, I think often people do understand.  When they zoom out and think big, they see that progression has got so many different ways that we can all progress.  The problem then becomes, we go into a career conversation and we default back to, "Well, progression equals promotion". 

So, it's just trying to remind ourselves and remember and kind of keep with us that there are loads of ways that we can progress.  So, a coach-yourself-question here is, "What does progression mean to me?"  Most of us haven't asked ourselves that question, and when we do, I often give people time to think about that question, create a little mind map answering that question.  Loads of people have said to us in the past they have a real just small aha moment where they'll say, "Oh, I realise that someone else is telling me what my progression should look like" or, "I assumed that progression had to mean promotion.  But actually, what I've realised is I'm motivated by a different kind of progression". Now, we are absolutely not anti-promotion.  I think it's just that we want people to see your careers kind of more broadly and go beyond promotion.  And a coaching question, if you're in a career conversation, if you're mentoring somebody is, "What's the progression that you'd feel proud of in a year's time?" 

Sometimes quite nice to, I think, do a bit of framing around time here, because if we just go, "How do you want to progress?" you can't help but think, "Don't know really.  That sounds quite hard".  It's quite hard, and it's quite a big question.  Whereas if you said to me, "Well, over the next year, how do you want to progress?" that's probably how I would phrase it in my everyday words, you then sort of go, "Okay, well, maybe there's something you'd like to learn.  That would be a bit of progression.  Maybe there's something you'd like to try out for the first time.  That would be a bit of progression.  Maybe some progression might come from how are you working.  Maybe you want to work in a different way, maybe different types of projects, different kinds of people".  And you just get into a much fuller and richer conversation then, I think, about growing. We are all kind of hardwired to want to feel like we are growing.  It's not a nice feeling when we feel like we're stuck or stalling in our Squiggly Careers.  I hear that from people.  You feel that sense of like, "Oh, I just don't feel like I am making progress".  But I think when we start to sort of release ourselves from progression equals promotion, it can feel actually really liberating.  And then it helps us to sort of untangle that knottiness around the stuck-ness that sometimes we all feel in our Squiggly Careers.

Helen Tupper: I think Sarah raised a really useful point there.  So, when she was saying that coaching question, "What's the progression you would feel proud of in a year's time?", and then she replayed it back in her own language a bit and said, "Oh, actually, I'd say, 'Over the next 12 months, what progression would you feel proud of?'" that's actually a really, really useful act to do, to say these questions out loud, particularly if you are going to use these questions with somebody else, like as a mentor, a manager, or in whatever environment you're asking them; you really want these questions to sound like you.  And so, I would take each of these coaching questions and just say it out loud, like just imagine you were saying it to someone else, and find your own language, which might be ours.  You might just take these questions and ask them as they are, but I think the more this sounds like you, so the more this is your tone, the words that you would use, the more natural it will feel in that conversation.  And we really want that authenticity to come through. 

We don't want you to feel like you're trying to say it in a way that we would. I think as long as you do the Squiggly swaps, get rid of those ladderlike words and you replace them with the Squiggly swaps, then how you kind of create that sentence or that question is totally up to you.  We try to make it as easy as possible, but what's most important is make the swap and make it sound like you, and then learn to listen, I think, which is a whole other skill in itself, which we've got podcasts on, but I think once we ask the question, we then have to learn to listen and give that person the space to respond with whatever is on their mind at the moment.

Sarah Ellis: And one idea that we've got that we would love some feedback from you on, is to create a few more what we're describing as Squiggly scripts.  So, exactly as Helen talked about there, this wouldn't be us saying, "This is exactly what you should say in a career conversation" or, "This is exactly the words that you use", but it would give you lots of examples what, say, a first conversation with a mentor might sound like, whether you're the mentor or the mentee; or if you were having a conversation about a pay rise, this is how you might structure it, and these are the words that you might use, and again give you the chance to then go, "Well, how would you say that in a way that feels like you and sounds like you?"  So at the moment it's the germ of an idea.  I'm allowed to say germ of an idea; is that still okay?

Helen Tupper: I think it might be.

Sarah Ellis: The start of an idea?  Okay.  I literally feel like I've got to do a workshop after this.  I feel like I'm just not going to say anything.  I'll just be like, "No, I can't say anything".

Helen Tupper: I can be on and just put a red flag up every now and again as an emoji, if that wouldn't distract you!

Sarah Ellis: Are you going to buy me some talcum powder for Christmas?  I actually have some talcum powder, because we use it with my son for when he's been on the beach, it helps get rid of sand.  Anyway, I feel like it's a very 1970s purchase.  But do let us know whether those scripts feel or sound like they'd be useful for you, and what would you want scripts on?  Because, if we get feedback that you sort of go, "We don't need them, thanks.  Thanks, but no thanks", great, that's really helpful for us to know. 

If you're thinking, "Yeah, I can imagine using that, I can imagine sharing that in my organisation", get in touch with us; we're just helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com. Then, like everything, we will probably experiment with some over the next few months, but it's always nice to know maybe where we should start and just get a bit of live learning from you, people who listen, who are probably the most likely people to be our early adopters.

Helen Tupper: So, thank you so much for listening today.  We'll summarise it, as we said, in the PodSheet.  We're also going to create a one-page post that we'll put on social media.  So, if you do follow us @amazingif on LinkedIn or Instagram and you see that post full of Squiggly swaps, please do share it because that's another way that we kind of help change the language that's happening around career development, is when more people can see these swaps and maybe give them a go.  But that is all for this week and we'll be back with you next week.  Bye for now everyone.

Sarah Ellis: Bye everyone!