Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction
00:02:03: WEF future skills
00:03:33: Episode format
00:04:22: Part one: awareness lenses...
00:05:04: ... 1: skills of interest
00:06:43: ... 2: skills for current role
00:08:05: ... 3: skills for your industry
00:10:37: Skills circles
00:13:34: How to act on the results...
00:13:46: ... 1: stretch the skills strength
00:21:06: ... 2: develop together
00:28:51: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Sarah Ellis: Hi, I'm Sarah.

Helen Tupper: And I'm Helen.

Sarah Ellis: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast.  Every week, we talk about a different topic to do with work, and share ideas and actions so that we can all navigate our Squiggly Careers with that bit more confidence and control.

Helen Tupper: And if you haven't already, it is worth signing up for Squiggly Careers in Action.  That's our weekly newsletter that comes out every Tuesday.  In there, you'll get links to the podcast, so that you don't miss out, and also lots of other things that you can use for your career learning too.  So, there are some how-to videos with practical tools and the odd matrix from me; there's Sarah's borrowed brilliance, with lots of the things that she's been listening and learning as well; and we've also got some of our free toolkits.  We will put the link to Squiggly Careers in Action in the show notes, or you can go to our website, amazingif.com, and sign up there.

Sarah Ellis: So today, we're talking about what skills matter most for your future career, which I feel is quite a big promise that we might be making.

Helen Tupper: I know!  Do you know, as soon as you said that, I was like, "Wow!" is this going to be one of those podcasts that really dates?

Sarah Ellis: Yeah!  Well, I think that's almost the point, and we decided not to be scared of it as a topic, because there is lots of noise and I think lots of pressure to feel like you are learning and reskilling.  And there's lots of talk in organisations about the skills that matter.  I've seen so many different skills matrices, really long lists of skills, that I think can feel quite overwhelming for people.  And you're looking at it and going, "Well, how do I make a decision about which skills to overinvest in?  Do I do what my organisation tells me to do?  How do I learn these skills?  Where do I start?"  So, though I do think this will change, this is a dynamic thing, right, you don't do this once and go, "Well, that's what I'm going to stick to", I do think taking some ownership and being intentional and having some agency over skills, as for you and your Squiggly Career, "What are the skills that matter most for me maybe right now?  Which are the ones that I really want to invest in?" I think that helps you to feel more confident and more in control, if you've at least asked yourself some of those questions.

Helen Tupper: Well, the idea for the episode as well, it came from, we did a survey with our community, where we asked them lots of different questions, and I think one of the questions was, "What worries have you got about your career at the moment?"  And lots of people said, "I'm either worried about how much I'm going to have to learn, and when I'm going to fit it in, or what I need to learn in order to stay relevant".  And I was thinking, we often reference the World Economic Forum, which does some research every year on the top career skills that you need to invest in.  And I think what's quite daunting is you look at the list, so it's got things like analytical thinking and innovation, complex problem-solving, critical thinking, leadership and social influence, technology use, monitoring and control.  And I think not only do you look at that and go, "Gosh, that's a lot!"  But also, if your job is not directly --

Sarah Ellis: Doesn't really involve those things, yeah.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, well I thought, if those are the future skills that I'm supposed to develop to stay relevant and that is not what I do today, then you're a bit like, "What happens to me?"  And so, I think we can't just look at a list and go, "They're the future skills, I need to invest in them".  There's got to be something else that happens between what I do today and where I want to go and how I use that to prioritise where I'm going to invest my time and develop.  I think what we're trying to do here is less about, "Here are five skills that you need to know right now", and more about, "How do you create a filter for your future career that helps you to stay relevant with your skills?  What are the things that will help you, regardless of what you do or regardless of where you're investing?" 

So, in order to answer that question, we're going to tackle this episode in two parts.  So, part one is all about awareness, it's about thinking about three different aspects of you and your career that will help you to make a decision about where you develop in.  So, the first bit's about awareness.  I'm going to use Sarah as a bit of a case study/guinea pig for that bit. 

Sarah Ellis: A skills guinea pig.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, a skills guinea pig.  That's quite funny!  She's going to be our skills guinea pig.  And then, part two is, once you've got that awareness and we've made quite an individualised approach to where you're going to prioritise your time, then it's, "Well, what do I do?  What am I going to do differently as a result of having that awareness?  What actions can I take on my own and what actions could I take with other people, so that I'm really investing in those skills that are going to be most important for me?"  Are you good to be my skills guinea pig? 

Sarah Ellis: I'm ready! 

Helen Tupper: So, this part one bit this is about looking at yourself and your career through three different lenses.  So, lens one is, "What skills do you want to invest in for yourself, like your own interests, the things you're passionate about?"  Lens two is more about the work that you do, so, "What skills are important for the work that you do?  Where can you maybe see that some of those skills might be evolving at the moment?"  And then, the third lens is a bit more zoomed out.  It's more about the sort of world that you are working in, "What skills are feeling important for that at the moment?"  And we're going to look at those three lenses individually, that's where I'll ask Sarah her questions, and then we're going to see, are there any themes that are coming through that might help you to prioritise where you invest. 

So, let's start with the first lens for you and your learning, you as an individual.  And we were thinking about, do we think about Sarah now in the job that you do running Amazing If, or do we go back to Sarah at Sainsbury's, for example?  Which Sarah are we talking about?

Sarah Ellis: So, I'm actually going to do a hybrid, because I think that will be most helpful.  It doesn't sound like it will be initially but I think it will be.  So, I am going to imagine that I am in Sainsbury's, so this is a supermarket in the UK today, working in marketing. 

Helen Tupper: Okay got it. 

Sarah Ellis: So, it's 2025 and I'm in a marketing team working in a big company. 

Helen Tupper: Okay, so the first lens is just you as that Sarah, what skills are you personally interested in investing in? 

Sarah Ellis: So, I definitely would have had a skills area around creativity, so probably creative thinking, coming up with ideas, coming up with concepts, reviewing creative work, creating creative work, so it's definitely kind of a creativity skill.  So, I was very interested in that.  And probably, the other big one for me would have been, and still is today, developing people, because even when I wasn't in Amazing If, I was very motivated by leading other people, developing people in my team, mentoring people outside of my team.  So, I was always really interested in learning and development.  So, probably creativity and developing people.

Helen Tupper: I always think this lens is a bit like the selfish skills, like, if I get to learn whatever I want to do, I enjoy these.  This is what I want to spend time on if I've got complete free reign.  Okay, so that's the first lens.  Second lens is the kind of work that you're doing.  So, if you're Sarah in marketing, what skills are important for you to invest in in order for you to sort of be brilliant at that role? 

Sarah Ellis: So, being strategic, I was always in quite strategic roles, not consistently, but I did a Head of Marketing Strategy role.  And I think every job you need to be strategic to an extent.  So, being strategic, being analytical, so the ability to evaluate how well is your marketing working, an understanding of things like budgets, probably not super-data-orientated, I wasn't in super-data-based jobs, but I think in every job in marketing you need to understand data well enough to ask questions or evaluate, so something around data.  And then probably, in Sainsbury's, something around relationships and working cross-functionally.  Because it's such a big company, you couldn't ever get anything done if you just were like, "Oh, I'm just going to do my own thing without knowing how does this connect to other teams, other parts of that organisation".  So, not just relationships generally, it was kind of cross-functional relationships going beyond your discipline.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, so we've got cross-functional relationships, we've got that data competence, so, "Can I converse with data?" and then, strategic skills would be important.  So, let's now do the third lens, which is sort of the world that you are working in.  Now obviously, you've got these lists of skills that come from all kinds of places, but they're not all necessarily relevant to the world that you work in.  But if you were to zoom out a little bit, so bigger than Sarah, bigger than Sainsbury's, that kind of next lens that we're looking at, what skills feel important for the world that you're working in?

Sarah Ellis: So, I think it is hard to ignore AI and it's inevitable, and I know it gets a bit on repeat because everybody's talking about it.  And I'm sure actually, if I was in Sainsbury's today, it would also matter in Sainsbury's.  But generally, I think it's one of those things where you've got to figure out, "What does AI mean to me in the industry that I'm in?  Is it about being more effective, more making my life easier?"  So, there would definitely need to be something about AI.  I think analytical skills generally, so probably a bit connected to what I was talking about in terms of understanding budgets and numbers, but perhaps a bit beyond that.  And I think the world still needs creative thinking, or whether I hope that that's true, I don't know whether the world needs it, or whether it does always come up in the World Economic Forum list top ten.  People often describe it as, it's something uniquely human, like the way that our brains work, albeit I would say I have seen AI come up with some good ideas and do quite a good job of some creative thinking.  So, I think the world needs that. 

Generally, I suppose if I even reflect on what we both do, I don't think there's a job that I've been in where relationships haven't mattered.  Because even when you're working on things that feel very solo endeavours, even when we're doing stuff that's very head-down, like writing a book, which in some ways doesn't really involve -- there's a moment with a book that doesn't involve anyone else other than us two, but then actually it takes so many relationships to make that work, and actually it goes way beyond the two of us.

Helen Tupper: It's more than cross-functional, it's sort of cross-company, isn't it?

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.

Helen Tupper: There's so many people that are involved in books. 

Sarah Ellis: And so, I feel like it's something beyond kind of cross-functional relationships, from a Sainsbury's perspective, but more about just that ability to build relationships.  I feel like it's how you discover new opportunities, I feel like it creates possibilities, it's how you make stuff happen.  I think if you don't have that as a skill, I feel like with every job I've done, I don't think I would have achieved the impact of all the things that I feel proudest of when I look back at them.  So, they're some of the territories, I think. 

Helen Tupper: So, the idea of doing this is you end up with sort of three skill circles.  So, Sarah's got a skill circle for things that she's selfishly interested in developing; a skill circle for what's important for the work; and then, what's important for the world that you work in.  And you're looking for a couple of things here.  So, first of all, there might be some obvious consistencies across the circles.  So, relationships came up a few times, also the analytical thing, slightly different in the work and the world, but it came up twice.  And then, I also think you can maybe join the dots across skills.  So, for example, you talked about, "The thing that I'm interested in is creating creativity", and then you talked about in the world with AI.  But I think you can join some dots there and say, "Well how can I use AI to help me to become more creative?"

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, almost skills stacking.

Helen Tupper: Yeah.  And you can't see where the similarities are or spot where you can join the dots until you've created those skill circles.  But I do think it helps to make things more individual, because when people go on all the time about, "Oh, we need to know more about AI", it's actually really big.  It's really big.  It's a bit like, "I need to be better at leadership".  You're like, "Okay, we should probably unpack that a little bit".  And I think what this helps you to do is say, "Well, yes, it is important, but why might it be important to me?" and you can sort of connect those a little bit.  So, creating the skill circles helps you to be more self-aware about what's important to you, and that means you can prioritise. 

So, just, if you were to pick three, for example, across all the things, I think you probably mentioned about nine different skills as you were going through that, if you were to pick three that feel most important to you based on what we talked about, what do you think you would prioritise?

Sarah Ellis: I would prioritise creative thinking, I think I'll call it that for now; I would prioritise relationships, maybe creating connections is how I would actually describe that; and probably maybe something around how I can connect AI to lots of other skills, almost to your description, because I think it is definitely one of those areas where you don't want to get left behind, and I think it's just going to become part of how we all do our jobs.  So, to your point, I don't really want to see it as a separate skill, because I think that might miss the point for me, because I'm not in an AI-based job.  I don't want to build loads of AIs, I wouldn't mind having a go, see what I could create, but I think I'd always want to be using it as like an 'and' rather than by itself maybe. 

Helen Tupper: So, sort of AI to amplify my impact, the creating and the connections, and then the creativity in my role. 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I think so. 

Helen Tupper: And again, that's not going to be forever, but doing that first process I think helps you to just get to that clarity about, "These are the skills that are most important for the future that I can see for me right now", and that's going to constantly change.  So, once you've got to that point, by doing the skill circles, the next thing is, "Well what am I going to do about it?  If that's the priority for me, how am I going to invest in those skills so they stand out and become a bigger part of the work that I do?"

Sarah Ellis: So, the first action we're going to talk about here is then, how do you make those skills stronger?  So, we want to overinvest in those skills that feel important to you, that you've been intentional about making a choice to say, "These matter to me", and they probably matter to your work and to the world, at least to some extent, because that's a smart choice to make.  And I think a good place to start is often, who is already good at this, or great at this, is probably actually a better question, that I can learn from?  So, this is not about comparing ourselves, because I think sometimes you might have a skill, say like creative thinking, then you might look at someone who's amazing at this and just be like, well, that can be daunting, you know, that sort of expert from a distance and you're like, "Well, I'm never going to be that, so why should I bother?"  And I can imagine opting out of a skill too soon because of that. 

So, if I look at, I follow John Hegarty on LinkedIn.  Now, John Hegarty is one of the original founders of a creative agency called BBH.  He made loads of really famous ads and continues to make lots of famous ads, but like the Levi's adverts, the Audi adverts.  And he's obviously discovered LinkedIn, I think, in the last few years, but his posts are really interesting on creativity and creative thinking.  I read one over the weekend on Nike and what they've been doing and maybe how they've lost some of their creative spirit but what it looks like to rediscover it.  And he does such thoughtful analysis about creativity.  And I think you've got two choices.  You could either go, "I am never going to be that.  I'm never going to be as good at that, and so that's not a skill for me", or you can just learn from it.  And I think that's what I find really useful, is almost having a community of people.  Because there's so much out there, so much volume, there's so much content now, that you've got to be really selective about who are you learning from.  It doesn't mean you don't need to mix it up every so often, because obviously you can get stuck in a bit of an echo chamber trap.  But the advantage now, I think, is that you don't need to know these people. 

Helen Tupper: Yes.

Sarah Ellis: I don't know John Hegarty.  I do know Margaret Heffernan a bit, but she's got some new work out on uncertainty and creative, and how the most creative people are often so brilliant at navigating uncertainty.  And so, I already know I will dive deep into that, because I know she's brilliant.  And again, if I compared myself to her, I'm like, "Well, obviously I'm never going to be her", but then you can still be a better version of you.  So, I think that's often my starting point, is once I've got that skill, surrounding myself with people who are brilliant and exceptional and usually who I don't know, and then I'm like, "Right, make an effort, read their newsletters, read their books, go to their events". 

Helen Tupper: Yeah, and you pick up lots of different ideas and it just inspires you.  I think the ideas and that inspiration is kind of that first bit that you're trying to sort of almost curate for yourself.  And then, once you've got that, you can think, "Well, how do I then make these stronger?  So, I'm getting more awareness of other people that do this well, so what am I going to do differently in my day?"  And this is where we often talk about stretching your strengths in the job that you do.  So, could it be in the meetings that you are in, or the conversations that you're having, or the projects that you're in, that you could just show up with that strength slightly more?  I always think that the more you use the strength, the more people and the more situations, the bigger and the better it becomes.  Because if I take a skill like career development, when I was just doing that in my job as a manager, I was getting incrementally better at it because my teams were getting slightly bigger.  But it wasn't until I started doing career development for people outside of the company that I worked for, or we started doing it together by running sessions, or even then thinking about, "What would this sound like on a podcast?"  You know when you're using that skill with different people in different situations, it just gets bigger and it gets better.  

So, what you are looking to do is to think about, "Well, how can I stretch that in the job I do today?  Can I use it more in the department?  Can I look for some initiatives in the company?  Can I use it outside of work?"  The more you can stretch the strength, the bigger and the better it will become, and a lot of that is in your ownership.  And the trick here, I always think the trick with stretching a strength is you want to create pull for the strength.  So, I could say to Sarah, "Oh, I want to use my creative thinking skill a bit more, what can I do?"  And that's me sort of pushing it on to Sarah, I sort of push the problem onto her to solve.  Whereas if I said, "Oh, it feels a bit like some of our kind of projects are stalling a little bit, they could do with some fresh thought to re-energise everyone.  One of the things that I really love is practising creative thinking.  Would it be helpful if I ran a bit of a workshop to get a bit more energy, a few more ideas into the team to create a bit more momentum?"  And I mean, this is a fake example, but Sarah's already nodding because it makes sense.  I've solved a problem, I've created a bit more of a pull for that strength from Sarah, rather than pushing it on.  It's the best way for other people to buy into you using those strengths more.

Sarah Ellis: I think a really practical thing that you could do, because I was just thinking as you were talking then, is you could look across your diary for a week, and what you are already doing, so this is a kind of an add-in, rather than an add-on, which is always a good thing, because it's hard enough as it is to do these things.  So, if we can add it into what we're already doing, that's always a bonus or a bit of a win.  And I was just thinking about the rest of my week and I can already identify one thing I've got coming up this week, so I don't think it needs to be loads, one thing I've got coming up where I could choose to use creative thinking to make that different to probably what I would have done anyway.  So, I'm going to spend some time this week with some teams asking them a bit about how work's feeling for them, just so that we can get a sense of how else we can be helpful with the work we do for Squiggly Careers.  

So, a typical approach to that is, I could have turned up to those conversations, a few questions prepared, fine, that's all I probably would have done.  If I then go, "Okay, but I want to get better at creative thinking as a skill", that's not a very creative approach, that's a sort of very standard approach.  So, then I'm starting to kind of muse over, "Okay, well, what are the tools, the techniques, how could I approach that differently so it's more creative for me, but also more creative for those people I'll be meeting too?  So, could I for example, do you remember the 8's model? 

Helen Tupper: Oh, Crazy 8's? 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, you get a blank piece of paper, you get everybody to fold it into eight, you set a brief and you get people to write down eight things.  So, what I could do, I was thinking, is I could maybe get people to do, what does a standard day look like for them at the moment, and then design your perfect day.  What eight things would happen in your perfect day at work?  I don't know.  But already, I was like, well that feels more interesting than me just sitting doing a very standard focus group where I ask a question and it's all a bit awkward with people answering questions.  But that doesn't take too much.  It's a bit more thought and I have to be intentional and I do have to take some initiative, but it's happening anyway so why wouldn't I try to get better at that skill in that moment? 

Helen Tupper: Yeah, so good thing, scan the week, spot at least one moment where you can stretch the strength you want to be known for.  And all of that is very often in your control, it's just about being intentional.  And the second action is to think about how you can develop together.  So, that first one was all about what can you do, what's in your control.  The second thing really is about how do you increase your impact by doing this with other people and developing together.  So, we've got three quick ideas that you can take here so that you can take that skilled thing you want to be known for, you can make it stand out more by doing it with other people. 

Sarah Ellis: So, the first one is skills snap.  And skills snap, as the name suggests, is finding someone else who's got the same skill that they want to invest in and make stronger.  So, I really like the idea of skills-sharing generally in a team.  So, if you imagine now you've got a team of eight to ten people and we all just pick two, we were like, "Right, what are two skills that matter to you in 2025?"  So, I might say creative thinking and adding AI into the work that I already do, using that as a skill.  Then, if I hear everybody else's, somebody else says a version of creative thinking or developing ideas, we've got a snap.  Always more fun and easier to learn together than it is to learn alone.  You probably want to do some things by yourself, but I think we know that learning lasts, it's often stickier when you're sharing it with someone.  So then, if Helen and I both said creative thinking, I might have some ideas for Helen, Helen might have some ideas for me, even if we were going to meet up. 

Helen Tupper: I feel like I want a sound effect. 

Sarah Ellis: Why? 

Helen Tupper: Can I have a snap?

Sarah Ellis: Oh, you want a snap? 

Helen Tupper: No, I thought you were going to clap my hand. 

Sarah Ellis: There you go.

Helen Tupper: She's such a reluctant snapper! 

Sarah Ellis: I did what you wanted me to.  I was like, "Oh God, that was scarily close to a high five!" 

Helen Tupper: It was a low five! 

Sarah Ellis: The day we high-five is the day I walk away, I think! 

Helen Tupper: Okay, noted!

Sarah Ellis: Just FYI!  Albeit, I do high-five my 8-year-old sometimes, but I think you've got to be under 11 for that to work.

Helen Tupper: Your poor child when they're 12 and they go for a high five.  You're like, "It's over!"

Sarah Ellis: Handshake!  But I do think, if you've found someone, you've also got that accountability partner.  Like, "We are both committing to this".  And so, you know if I didn't do that thing I just described to you, which I actually genuinely am going to do this week, you're probably going to say to me, "How did that go?"  And so, if I now don't do it, I'll feel bad and I'll feel a bit lazy, or like I'm not doing the thing that I said I was going to do.  And so, I think sometimes just having that kind of sharing, that snap with someone, and it doesn't have to be in your team, I think it could be someone in a network in a company, could be someone in a different team, could be somebody you know in an industry, like I'm part of some WhatsApp groups; whereas, I think if you did this in a WhatsApp group, it would work brilliantly, a really easy way for everyone to share.

Helen Tupper: I can imagine people doing the emoji.  Like, you put it down and, "Give me an emoji if this is the …"

Sarah Ellis: Some sort of card, playing card.

Helen Tupper: Yeah.

Sarah Ellis: Because it's snap, maybe.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, sure.  We could play with it.  Maybe we could do it on our PodPlus WhatsApp group.  But yeah, I think finding a skills snap is just a nice way to buddy-up your development.  So, the second idea of developing together is to do a skill swap.  So, this idea is where, again, team environment, you share things that you want to develop in, but if somebody already has that ability that you could borrow from, you could swap it with each other.  So, let's say that I've already been playing with AI and how it can help me do my job better.  I could say, "Well, why don't I spend some time with you Sarah and share what I have been doing well and see how it could work for you?"  And equally, if Sarah had some skills that were useful for me based on what I want to develop, you're swapping that with each other.  And I like it because I think that's just a very realistic way of learning, because you're going to be giving me tried and tested stuff rather than me reading about it in a book.  And maybe it might be interesting but it might not really work for my context.  I think skill-swapping you get much more relevant learning that way.

Sarah Ellis: And it's just really practical, isn't it, like somebody might just be like a skill that they want to be amazing at is, they're great at data analysis, and someone described to me actually how you can use AI for data analysis, and they did a bit of a how-to video.  And it blows your mind.  I was like, "Oh my God, that's amazing!"  But someone just sitting down with you for half an hour with a screen and just being like, "Well, you do this".  You don't need to get brilliant at that, you're not going to be as good as they are, but you've nudged forward that skill a bit.  Like I don't want to be known for my data analysis, but do I want to be good enough at that skill?  Yes. 

So, if someone can do a bit of a skill swap with me, it's an easy way for me to get better, probably that feels very relevant to my context.  Because if they're in the same team or the same company they're probably using it in a way that I understand, compared to, you know when we talked about like borrowing brilliance from people you don't know, that's quite far away, it's quite removed, whereas this is very relevant. 

Helen Tupper: I suppose that one can also be a bit aspirational.  That whole point is ideas and inspiration, but it's not always immediately applicable.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I'm probably not going to make a TV ad for Levi's anytime soon.

Helen Tupper: I mean who knows?  And the third one then is the idea of finding a skills sponsor.  So, this is where you share the skill that you want to develop with somebody, and sponsors are often people who've got access and influence.  So, the idea here of having a skills sponsor is you are going to have the ability to challenge me with my skill.  So, you know, I want to be known for, I don't know, being a brilliant presenter, I really want to know that.  And so, as my skills sponsor, I'm giving you the authority to give me feedback for example.  You're sort of bought into me and my ability and you want to see it get better.  So, you're giving me feedback, you might be spotting opportunities for me.  Like you want me to do well and you're also the sort of person who's brave enough to let me know where I could be better.

Sarah Ellis: I think it's both challenge and champion, isn't it?

Helen Tupper: Yes, yeah exactly that. 

Sarah Ellis: Because the challenge is the feedback, the challenge can also be constructive, "Have you thought about…?" or, "This could be a good idea to get better at that skill".  And the championing can be, "Oh, did you know that this project is coming up?  That would be a good opportunity for you to use that skill".  It could be about connection.  Sponsors often can make really good connections, "Oh, have you spoken to this team or that person?  They could help you with that skill".  And we were talking about often the idea of sponsorship feels quite intimidating.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, and vague sometimes.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, like, "Oh, I need a sponsor for my career", dan feel like quite a big ask of someone, and you don't really ever ask for a sponsor anyway.  Often, sponsorship is sort of earned over time.  But I do think you could ask for a skill sponsor.  It's a much easier ask and it's a bit smaller, because you're essentially saying to somebody, "I want to invest in this skill", not necessarily because you're not very good at it, just it's something probably you want to be known for.  But you see them as someone you can learn from and learn with.  So, it's quite a nice ask, isn't it, because it's quite flattering? 

Helen Tupper: Yeah, I'd be quite proud.  If someone said, "I'd like you to be my skills sponsor over the next six months", I'd be like, "Yes, that's quite a nice role for me to play.  I feel like I want you to do well, I want you to do that". 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I just think if someone said to me, because I often talk in workshops about, "I like creative thinking and I like idea generation"; if someone had said to me, in our team, not that they ever have, but if they did --

Helen Tupper: Someone might do now!

Sarah Ellis: Let's imagine, "Oh, I want to get better at thinking creatively.  Can you be my skills sponsor for that?"  I think I'd take it really seriously, but I think also, obviously, I would get better at that skill because I would be thinking, "So, what do I do that I can share usefully?  What can I involve that person in?"  It would probably also challenge me to go further and faster, because I would want to make sure that I was really supporting that person.  So, I reckon everybody wins with that. 

Helen Tupper: I might write a LinkedIn post about how to be a skill sponsor.  So, as well as listening to this, people can proactively do it.  So, that's everything that we were going to talk about today.  What we will do, because we've talked about a few different ideas, some for you to do on your own, some for you do with other people, we will summarise all of this in the PodSheet, which is a one-page summary that we create.  You can get to it if you go to our website, amazingif.com, and it will just help you to work through both that first bit on awareness, where we talked about the skill circles; and then, the second bit around action that you're going to do on your own and with other people. 

Sarah Ellis: But that's everything for this week.  Thank you so much for listening and we're back with you again soon.  Bye for now.