Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction

00:02:52: Parallels to online dating

00:03:40: Job search scenarios

00:04:48: Ideas for action…

00:05:01: … 1: career comfort blanket

00:08:26: … 2: same work, different place

00:12:56: … 3: communities to connect with

00:17:04: … 4: time-boxing and breaking

00:21:29: … 5: share your skills

00:27:29: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Helen Tupper: Hi, I'm Helen.

Sarah Ellis: And I'm Sarah.

Helen Tupper: You're listening to the Squiggly Careers podcast, a weekly show where we talk about the ins, outs, ups and downs of work and share some ideas for actions, some tools for you to try out to give you a bit more confidence and control of all the Squiggly stuff that you're experiencing right now. If this is the first time that you've listened to the podcast, we've also got loads of extra resources to support you and your Squiggly career. 

So, we have PodSheets, which are summaries of every episode with lots of the key takeaways for you all in one place.  We've also got lots and lots of free career resources on our website, amazingif.com.  Head to the Toolkit and there's loads of stuff that you can use on your own; if you mentor people, it might help you with that, and you can also use it in team meetings, so lots of stuff to support you.

Sarah Ellis: This week, we're talking about how to stay confident during a job search, so not the ins and outs of job searching itself, more the relentless nature, at times, of actually searching for a new role, where I think often the initial excitement that comes from exploring something new can wear off pretty quickly. We were talking about why you need to stay confident and why sometimes you need to boost your belief, and I was reflecting that when you are looking for something new, suddenly you have a load more rejection than I think you're used to in your job and you're putting in a lot of effort, sometimes feeling like you're getting very little reward from that effort. So, that sort of equation of what I put in versus what I get back can often feel quite unequal and really draining, because if you are doing this well, you're applying for a job, you probably care about that role, you've thought about it, you almost have to do a bit of that imagining yourself in that role, "What would I bring; could I get excited about that organisation or that position?" 

So, you've started to invest in it and then, if you don't hear anything back, which I always think is unacceptable but does happen quite a lot so you get completely ghosted, it feels like all of that effort disappears into the ether, literally get nothing back; I also think it can feel quite lonely. I was reflecting back on every time I've been in this situation, maybe trying to move companies or into something very new, it's one of those tasks where you can't share it with anyone else.  So, your Squiggly Career is yours and we do need to get the right people around us, but it's one of those moments where I feel like it's really all on you, you're the one doing the searching, you're the one doing the applying.  You can't be sitting next to your job-search buddy and both be applying for the same job because that would be quite weird.  It's one of those moments where it can quite quickly feel quite tough and disheartening, so we don't like to shy away from a difficult topic. We thought we'd talk about this today; hopefully, that doesn't sound too bleak, but I think it does feel quite bleak for people a lot of the time, so that probably is the context.

Helen Tupper: Just thinking about it, I feel like there are some parallels with online dating which somebody very close to me is doing quite a lot of right now.  All those feelings of you're investing in quite a lot but that doesn't go right, and it's like, "Oh, is this the one?  Oh no, they've not replied to me.  Is this the one?  Oh no, they've ghosted me and not got back to me", and that sort of disillusionment and the draining and, "Oh God, when will this all be over?!" I actually think the risk with it is, and this is probably with relationships too, people might settle on the wrong solution; they're just exhausted by the process, they're like, "Well, I'll just give anything and go", and that probably isn't going to work out brilliantly, but it's really understandable given how hard it can feel just to go round and round this situation where you're just looking for a role and you want to work and you want to do a good job and it's like, "Well, how do I get it?"

Sarah Ellis: I think we recognise that you're probably going to be in one of two different situations if this is you at the moment, and I do think they have slightly different implications, which we'll try and cover as we go through.  One might be you're not working right now, so maybe you've been redundant, maybe you've chosen to leave and you've got a finite amount of time before you need to work again, your days are dominated by the job search process.  So that might be your scenario, your kind of situation at the moment.  Or, you've got a very busy day job, because whose day job isn't busy, and you're trying to do this on top of that. I actually think the mindset that you're in is quite different in those two things, and your challenges are sometimes quite different.  I think they can be equally hard and you can almost have all of the emotions and the feelings that we've described in terms of the excitement wears off, it's a lot of effort, it can feel quite lonely; but probably some of the impetus and some of what you might do differently will vary depending on whether you're scenario one, which is you're not working and you're wanting to get back into work, or you are working but you want to do a different kind of work.

Helen Tupper: So, we've got five ideas for action which we hope will help you if you're in either of those situations that Sarah talked about just to feel a bit more positive and in control of the actions that you're taking.  So, the first idea for action is about your career comfort blanket.

Sarah Ellis: I like this one.

Helen Tupper: I like this one too.  Sarah and I were like, "Okay, if this was us right now, what would we do?" and we were like, "We would go to the people who believed in us, who supported us, who'd seen us at our best", we would go and have a conversation with those people because they would remind us of what we can do and they would give us the energy to not get stuck in a situation but to do something different. So, the question for you to think about here, maybe we'll give you some of our people if it helps you to unlock your thinking about who they could be for you, but the question is, "Who are your top three career comfort blankets?"  And to prompt that, this is people that after you spend time with them, you always feel better about yourself.  So, Sarah, who would that be for you?

Sarah Ellis: So, I was thinking about these three and actually, in some ways, it can be surprising actually, it's not always the most obvious people who I think are the answer to this question.  I've got three: one is a guy called Tom, who I've worked with in the past, who actually I don't see or speak to that frequently any more.  He moved away to a different part of the country, we don't catch up particularly regularly.  I feel like Tom is, when he needs to be, a bit of a cheerleader for me, he just almost starts every conversation with, "You're so ace", and I'm like, "Oh, okay, great, thanks".

Helen Tupper: "Thanks, Tom".

Sarah Ellis: It's funny, he definitely sprang to mind even though I wouldn't message him that frequently or anything; one previous boss called Sarah who I have stayed in touch with over the years and does know me very well, has seen me at my best very directly; and actually one of my friends, Claire.  Claire's somebody who I've done some volunteering with and the reason actually she sprung to mind was I thinking, when I was searching for a job when I was on maternity leave, it's quite a hard time to search for a job quite soon after I'd started maternity leave, I was exploring what I wanted to do next, I really remember Claire being that career comfort blanket at that time, probably a bit in my life as well as work life, so just general life. She just naturally has a very supportive, empathetic and understanding style, it's just her style.  I think it's her way of being makes her this kind of career comfort blanket where you just feel better, you just know that if you message her, even a WhatsApp message from her, you just sort of feel that bit better than you did before.

Helen Tupper: It's so nice to think about them.  When I was trying to think about my people, I ended up thinking about, not intentionally, but a manager that I'd worked for.  So I was like, "Okay, so one of my career comfort blankets is someone that I've worked for".  Then, I was thinking about another one, and it was someone who had worked for me, I think they would talk to me about the impact I'd had on their career, and I was like, "Oh, that's just nice to hear"; you know when you're not feeling great, it's nice to hear that you've made that difference to someone's career. So, I had a manager that I'd worked for that I would go to because they'd be like, "Oh, Hels, stop beating yourself up, be brilliant", and I'd be like, "Thanks", and then someone that worked for me, and then somebody that's in a community that I'm part of that might actually not have worked with me but thinks that I'm good anyway, like a cheerleader. When I was thinking about people, they were all people in those places that came to mind for me.  It's spending time with these people, it's knowing who your career comfort blanket people are.  Then, if you're in this situation of like you're in a job search and it's feeling pretty tricky, just go spend some time with these people, and that could be virtual or in person, but that conversation's probably going to be a bit of a boost.

Sarah Ellis: So, idea for action number two we're calling same work, different place.  So, the idea here is that sometimes when you're spending a lot of time job searching, if you're always doing that in the same way, in the same place, that's when it can start to feel really monotonous and you can lose your energy for it.  So, our question here was, "Where could you spend time searching for roles that you would look forward to?" This is where I think it might be slightly different depending on the situation you find yourself in.  So for example, if you're spending the majority of your week searching for roles, so that's how you're spending most of your time, you're not working, you might want to mix it up.  You might think, "Well, Monday, I'll do that at home because I'll ease myself into the week", this is basically what I would do. 

Then Tuesday, I might think, "Okay, well, perhaps I'll be a home for the half the day but I'm going to walk to a coffee shop that I really like, treat myself to a nice coffee and do a bit of job searching in that coffee shop". Maybe Wednesday, I will literally get on a train to go to a different part of London or somewhere near where I live that I know can go and work, so some sort of co-working space, or there are quite a lot of places now, and you and I have both used this, where you can spend about £10 and you can work there; they're often hotel, co-working, coffee shop-type places.  They have that intention of, "You're very welcome to work here", but you sort of pay for a day pass, and they're often quite affordable and accessible, particularly if you're not doing it every day because I wouldn't do that every day, I'd probably do that once a week and be like, "That day I'm going to go and do that, and then this day maybe I'm going to go and work in a library, surround myself with books". 

I think mixing it up and having that variety means you don't get a bit stale, like I really wouldn't want to be sitting where I am sitting now talking to you applying for jobs day in day out. Then, if you're maybe in a day job and then you're trying to fit in this on top of a day job where time becomes a factor, I would almost try and treat it like a, "Well, where do you go to do that job searching?"  So, the best example I could think of of this for me was when I was at Barclays, I didn't want to stay sitting in Barclays then applying for other jobs in other companies, because obviously that just felt inappropriate.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, though lots of us have done it, hands up!

Sarah Ellis: I would have just felt a bit uncomfortable doing it.

Helen Tupper: Yeah.

Sarah Ellis: But also, if I go home, I'm like, "Oh yeah, but when I go home I'm sort of at home and --" actually Netflix probably didn't exist at that time, but like, "I want to watch whatever the equivalent of that is", because I really remember that being a hard process, moving from Barclays to then where I went; that took ages, I got loads of rejections, there were all these amazing jobs that no one every replied, and I was like, "Oh".  Actually, talking about the library, I really remember applying for a job at the British Library and thinking, "Dream job".

Helen Tupper: Yeah, you would have loved that.

Sarah Ellis: I put so much effort into it and literally nothing, no reply and just like, "No!"  They're probably sitting in the British Library applying for a job with the British Library and they're not even replying! So, what I found was a chain coffee shop, it wasn't a very inspiring place hang out, it was sort of the days before super-cool coffee shops, and I just used to go to that same chain coffee shop.  I'd almost sit in this little bit where it was in a corner, no one could see my screen, you treat yourself to your one nice coffee or whatever you're going to have, and I'd be like, "I'm going to spend 90 minutes now and I'm just going to do either searching or applying, and I'd almost go, "This is my place, this is my place where I do my job searching", and then I go home for the day.

Helen Tupper: Yeah.

Sarah Ellis: Then, when I'm home, I sort of relax.  So, I do think the environment you're in, especially if this is feeling hard and you're trying to sort of re-find your mojo and motivation with this, a change of place and space can work wonders.

Helen Tupper: I agree, and I think to add to the list, and maybe we'll create a list if you want some inspiration of low-cost spaces to work, whether you're looking for a role at the moment or not, I like museums; I would look at London and Oxford because that's sort of between where I live, but most cities have got some cool museums in them, and they tend to have good coffee shops.  I would look forward to going because I'd think, "I'll go to the coffee shop and then maybe I'll have a little wander round", but even still, there's always good energy, good people watching, and in the week, fewer children too which is always a bonus. 

Normally, I'm full of kids at the weekend, including mine, annoyingly! I think looking at those spaces; also, there's a company called Hubble which we use quite a lot at Amazing If, and they have access, really cost-effective access to lots of coworking spaces that Sarah mentioned.  And sometimes you can even go on those coworking spaces and they will have like a free day pass for you to try out. 

So, again, there are lots of low-cost ways in which you can work in different places, you just have to look it up really. So, number three is all about communities to connect with, and when we talk about communities, this could be networks around your industry maybe or maybe there are some particular communities around your profession, or maybe there are events that are happening in and around your current world of work.  The aim really is that, by connecting with that community, you can build new relationships, you can share knowledge, you can get excited and inspired about that world of work that you've chosen to be in, because if you've been searching for a role for a while, you might be lacking some of that inspiration.  You probably had it at the start, but as it feels really hard, that can feel like it's sort of going, and you need it because when you're going through that interview process and things, they want to see that inspiration, they want to see that you've got energy for that work that you're doing.  So, I think connecting with communities can help you stay connected to that inspiration. So, the question for you to ask yourself here is, "What communities could you connect with and learn from?" 

If that feels really hard, if you're like, "I don't know, that's part of the problem", I would ask some of the people, some other people that work in a similar world to you like, "What communities are you part of; who do you learn with and from?"  I'd google it to be honest, I would just google like, "I work in accounting, what accounting events are there?"  I've even looked, though I think it's a low hit rate in terms of success, I've used Eventbrite before and I've typed in things that I'm interested in and I have looked for events, but on Eventbrite, you get a real mixed bag I would say, some really good ones and then some ones that might not be quite right. The other thing that I've done to find communities is, thought-leading companies that are in your industry or profession often put on events.  So, between people and companies that are doing good stuff in your world and also maybe just some random events and networks that you might find on meetup.com or Eventbrite, they are good places to surface these communities that you could spend some time in.

Sarah Ellis: And often, if you follow those companies on LinkedIn, which is quite a passive and easy thing to do, then you end up spotting and seeing those opportunities to connect.  So, I'm definitely not somebody who finds this easy to do and I also recognise it can feel unrealistic.  So, you might be thinking, "Yes, but I'm doing my job or I'm spending loads of time searching for a job, and now you're telling me I've got to find some communities to connect with", I wouldn't see this as "and one more thing to do", I would see it as, this is like an "instead".  So, on one of the moments, 90 minutes or a couple of hours when you would have spent time doing job searching or applying for roles, give yourself the opportunity to spend that time differently, because that's still an investment in your job search but in a different way.

I did see an event, I follow a company called Nice and Serious that I've worked with before and I really like and admire, I follow one of their founders, and I just saw he popped up something on LinkedIn last week saying, "We're putting on this event", in partnership with a couple of other companies that I'd not heard of, "This is when it is", basically anyone can come along, "This is how you register".  So, I just had a quick look and read it and thought, "Oh, that feels really interesting, a bit connected to some things we're interested in.  I'm just going to do that, I'm just going to make the time for that", but I won't then sort of go, "Well, I've got to do that and on top of everything else I'm trying to do", I'll drop something else in that week instead. So, I think I do know that sometimes, when you get these extra ideas, it can feel a bit like, "But I'm exhausted from the job searching", but I hope what these things would do, they'd act almost like a recharge.  So, if you can find the right ones for you, it's almost like you're plugging your battery back in and then you'll feel more re-energised to keep going with that search again.

Helen Tupper: Well, connect with communities as well, I think it's smart job searching because most of our career opportunities come through people; they're not the stuff that's advertised that lots of people send CVs off for, it's a conversation and a connection.  So, the community thing both gives you a bit of a boost and helps you to learn, but it's also likely to be one of the effective ways that you're going to be made aware of roles and opportunities as well.  So, it does have a double effect, I think, this one.

Sarah Ellis: So, idea for action number four, we're calling time-boxing and breaking.  So, this is about how can you create moments to press pause and re-energise so that you don't suffer from job search burnout.  And I do hear this really frequently from people who are searching for roles that are just like, "I'm not sure I can look on LinkedIn Jobs anymore or Guardian Jobs", or wherever you're looking, or, "I'm not sure I can amend my CV one more time", because you're trying to make it personal and you're trying to connect it to the job description.

Helen Tupper: Well, I've done that before and you're doing it so much that you're like, "If any of these companies actually reply, I'm going to forget which personalised CV I sent to where", because you're just trying to get it out to so many people and so many companies and you're just like, "Oh God, it's just so confusing!"

Sarah Ellis: So, what we mean by time-boxing and breaking is setting yourself goals in terms of when you're going to be on and off.  So, if you were working, and this is something that I've done loads of times, every time I've been looking for a job, because I do think it can get a bit on top of you, I always think, "Right, I'm going to do a month on, so I'm going to time-box for this month, yeah, I'm going search all I can, I'm going to put as much into as I can, and then I'm going to take a month off", and I've taken a break; that's my time-break and time-box; so I might do month on, month off. Or you could do something like, "No, I really want to go for it for a bit, so I'm going to do three months quite intensive, everything I can possibly do, and then, do you know what, if nothing comes from it after three months, I'm going to give myself at least a month off to just regroup, maybe do a bit of reconsidering, think, 'What have I learnt; what might I do differently?'"  

But I often think, by having that time-boxing and breaking, knowing that, it gives you momentum but also you look forward to knowing that you don't have to do it for a bit, you've sort of given yourself permission to stop for a while. Now, I think it is different if you've not got a job, "Well, I need a job, so don't have that luxury of thinking, 'Oh, well, I'll do it for a bit and then I'll stop'", so I would then apply boxing and breaking but to my days.  So, if I hadn't got a job, I'd be thinking, "Right, I've got about a month to get another job because otherwise I can't pay my mortgage, so I do need to spend some time every day doing that job search", but I would probably think, "Okay, I work quite well in about 90 minutes; after about 90 minutes I'm never that good anyway".

So, I might go, "Right, I'm going to do a walk first thing in the morning, I'm just going to make sure I've got started on my job search by 10.00am.  By 11.30am, I'm going to let myself have a break for an hour and literally just do whatever I want to do, whether it's exercise or reading, whatever it might be, and then as long as I do another 90 minutes at some point in the afternoon, that feels like a day well done, that feels like I've invested in that job search".  But I have been specific about essentially two 90-minute blocks and then putting quite a lot of breaks around those blocks; my logic being that then that three hours will be me at my best and very well spent and also then I've got enough energy, because I'm going to do the same thing again tomorrow, maybe in a different place, but I'm still going to be spending three hours searching and applying for jobs the next day. Now, for some people, they might be able to do longer than that, or you might be able to do it differently to that. 

You might go, "I'm going to have two days when I'm pretty much on it all the time and then, Wednesday, I'm going to take much more of a break" or, "I do take Wednesdays off job-searching, so I do Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday break, Thursday, Friday"; you design it in a way that works for you. It can feel slightly counterintuitive, can't it, to go, "I'm going to take a break from something that feels really important that I'm trying to make happen.  What I should do is just keep doing more of it, more searching later at night for longer", but the likelihood of that job search being successful increases if you can put some breaks in along the way.

Helen Tupper: Just to take something that you said there, I think if you are not in work at the moment and you're looking for work and this is feeling really hard, I think Sarah's suggestion about a day well worked, or a day well done I think you said, is actually that will be a positive thing for you to do as well because if feels like you're stuck in an endless cycle, it can be hard to see the positives in the day. But I think if you can say, "Okay, well, today well done is I'm going to spend 90 minutes doing a job search, I'm going to spend 60 minutes looking at a free course on Coursera, I'm going to spot an event that I want to attend", or whatever, three things that would make today a day well done, I think that would give you a send of achievement which I think you can lose when you are not in work.  So, that might be a specific extra tip if you are not working at the moment and looking for a role and maybe finding it a bit hard. So, the fifth and final idea for action is about sharing your skills.  So the context here is that, if you are getting a bit of rejection, so you're applying for a lot of roles and you're not hearing back or you're getting declined for an interview, sometimes it can lead to a bit of self-doubt like, "Am I good enough to get the things I want to do?  Maybe I've got some gaps in my CV, maybe I can't get to where I want to get to", all that kind of stuff can start to get into your mind.  So, what we want to do is we want you to feel really positive about your abilities and your impact and all the brilliant things that you can bring.  So, sharing your skills with other people can create that feeling for you, and this is as simple as you thinking, "What is it I want to be known for; what things am I particularly passionate about; who could I help with that?"

So, I might think one of the things that I'm really passionate about is taking people's ideas and helping put them into action, talking about my prototyping skill or helping people to grow things in their business.  I could try and spot people, people that I could maybe mentor, that could be a peer or someone who's doing something that I think I could contribute to, and basically offer my skills to help them, which might sound like, "I love what you're doing, I've got some experience in that area, if I can help you to get it going I'd love to get involved". What you get there is the helper's high, so this is basically a boost for our brain because it helps us to feel really useful; you get that sense of achievement because you've done something which helps someone else do what they're doing better; and it also gives you a bit of validation.  It's not always brilliant to need validation, but in this situation, maybe it's not that bad for someone to say to you, "That was really helpful, thank you", maybe that little pat on the back from somebody else is exactly what might help you right now when those doubts might be growing a little bit in terms of you and your development.

Sarah Ellis: So, the question to consider here is, "How could you share your skills with someone who needs them?"  I do think, to Helen's point, when you do start sharing your skills, it could be one person, it can be 100, you do you, I do think teaching someone, you often do realise how much you know.  I think so many people take for granted, "I just sort of know how to do this", or, "This is just a skills that I use a lot so I've actually got really good at it", or, "I'm naturally talented at it".  It's only when somebody goes, "Yeah, I'd like to learn about that thing, that expertise you've got or that thing that you're really good at; how are you good at it; what is it that you do; what advice would you give me?"

 And if you're thinking, "But why should anyone listen to me, and I'm not even sure my advice is that helpful?", I promise you, it is better than you are giving yourself credit for. Just ask yourself that question, if you're trying to increase your confidence before even having that conversation or if you're still doubtful about whether you've got that worth, that thing to give, just ask yourself what advice would you give to someone trying to develop XX skill that you're good at?  So, I might say to then Helen, "What advice would you give to someone who is trying to get better at prototyping?" and Helen could probably be like, "Oh okay, well I'd probably say do X, Y and Z" but maybe you've thought of those things already, you probably already do that", and I'd be thinking, "No, probably I don't do any of those things", or I've not thought of those things.

So, I think don't dismiss the skills you've got because it might feel obvious to you, or you assume that everyone's better than you already at those things, because everyone brings a different perspective and everyone has got something to give, and you could literally be sharing those skills with someone else where you work today or doing some really informal mentoring.  Just try and find a way to share because you'll make that skill stronger.  This is another one of those ideas for action where you'll get even more multiples of benefits; not only will you feel more confident, you will make that skill stronger, and when you get in an interview and you've got a question about helping someone else or, "Talk to me about something you've done differently recently", you've got a real life example that feels very relevant and very recent. A lot of the ideas for action that we've talked about today have got high relevance and recency which does help you when you're doing applications, so I really hope with these job search things that we've talked about, first and foremost it will boost your belief, but also it will increase your chances of a successful job search.

Helen Tupper: And just on that sharing your skills piece, it is a confident move to make, but I have seen some people that we know on LinkedIn say, "Whilst I'm looking for my next move, I've got some time and I'd love to help anyone who needs support with XXX", basically insert skill, and that serves two purposes.  So, first of all, it signals to other people who might not know that you're in the market but in a very positive way like, "Whilst I'm looking for roles", and people might be like, "Oh, I didn't know you were looking", and they might get in touch with you.  It also means that you might connect with people who are outside of your immediate community that you could help, and again, back to people helping people, you help those people with your skills, they work in a world that you might not be in every day, they can see opportunities that you might not be aware of. So, like I say, that's quite a confident move to make, I think, to go on LinkedIn, but if you can word it in a way that works for you, like, "Whilst I'm looking for opportunities, really keen to share my skills.  If anyone needs to support with … let me know", if you can word it in a way that feels like you, I don't think it feels like too scary a move to make, but it might be worth considering if this feels like an idea for action that you would want to take forward.

Sarah Ellis: And you were telling me, Helen, as we were preparing for this podcast, you've had two people recently just reach out to you directly --

Helen Tupper: Yeah.

Sarah Ellis: -- who again, have got a bit of time at the moment and have just obviously tried to connect the dots between a skill that they've got and thought, "I wonder if Helen would find this helpful".  You can do it in a very informal way, zero pressure, you're not forcing your skills on anyone, you're just saying, "I happen to have a bit of time, would that be helpful", or, "Can I be helpful in this area?"  Someone might be like, "Actually, not right now because I'm super busy", or, "Actually, that's not quite where we are", but the majority of people will be like, "Oh, someone's offering to help me, brilliant", and they'll bite your hand off.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, which I did!  So, the five ideas for action that we have shared, we will summarise for you in the PodSheet, and you can get that link the show notes on Apple, or if you're listening on a different platform, how professional that sounds, just go to our website which is amazingif.com; there is a podcast page, you'll find all of our podcasts, we've got over 320, and the last about 120 all come with these PodSheets, so you just click on the episode and then you'll find all the resources there.

Sarah Ellis: Good luck if you are currently in the midst of a job search.

Helen Tupper: Yes.

Sarah Ellis: We know it's not easy and we know it can feel quite disheartening at times, so we do hope that this has been a source of support, maybe even been a bit of self-belief boost in its own right just listening to today.  Please make all the use of everything free that we create, whether that's our Redundancy Reset Toolkit that you can find on our website, there are loads of free ten-minute tools, podcasts.  We have more free stuff than we know how to package up, which is our problem to try and sort out at the moment.

Helen Tupper: That's true.

Sarah Ellis: But if you are stuck or if you do need some inspiration as well, you can always email us; we're helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com, but we really do hope this has been helpful because we know this one of those knotty moments in your Squiggly Career where sometimes you do just need a bit of support and spark of inspiration.

Helen Tupper: Absolutely.  But thank you very much for listening today and we're back with you again next week.

Sarah Ellis: Bye, everybody.  Thank you for listening.