Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction
00:00:48: Some examples of change
00:04:44: Practical ideas...
00:05:16: ... 1: make the best of where you are
00:05:28: (i) talk to your manager
00:10:27: (ii) spot new opportunities
00:13:48: (iii) set a one-word intention
00:18:39: ... 2: go beyond to feel better
00:18:41: (i) get a move mentor
00:22:14: (ii) opt in to selfish times
00:26:37: (iii) choose your change story
00:30:47: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Sarah Ellis: Hi, I'm Sarah.

Helen Tupper: And I'm Helen.

Sarah Ellis: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast.  Every week, we talk about a different topic to do with work, and we share some ideas and actions to help all of us navigate our Squiggly Careers with that bit more confidence and control.

Helen Tupper: And for a little bit of extra Squiggly support, it is worth signing up for our weekly newsletter, Squiggly Careers in Action.  It comes out every Tuesday, it has the links to all the podcasts and the resources that we create that go with it, it has Sarah's borrowed brilliance, it has my how-to videos, and also some stuff that goes on behind the scenes at Squiggly Careers.

Sarah Ellis: I think that's had more comments that anything else!

Helen Tupper: I know!

Sarah Ellis: The stuff behind the scenes!

Helen Tupper: I like the messages people are sending us from the newsletter.  I feel like, you know how your inbox is just full of loads of boring stuff?  I feel like ours, it might be a moment of lightness in people's weeks.  So, yeah, sign up for that!

Sarah Ellis: It is always nice.  So, today, we're talking about how to make sure change doesn't stall your career progression, because I think often, change is out of our control, but then it feels like it's happened to us and often, the outcomes are not what we would have chosen.  And I've had conversations with people about their careers over the last month, and this has kept coming up, where people are saying to me, maybe they're in a role that they didn't choose, but they're like, "Well, I'm grateful to have a job", you know, people are like, "I don't want to be ungrateful, but this is not what I would have probably applied for, given a choice"; or maybe the role you wanted.  So, you were hoping to do a role in the future, maybe that's been restructured, or that just isn't there anymore, or it feels like the likelihood of doing that role has gone down.  A team has just changed, and it just doesn't feel like such a good fit, maybe in terms of their focus.  Perhaps previously, you were doing a lot more of one thing in terms of tasks, and you enjoyed that, but maybe that's gone to a different team now, you know, when work gets divided up in new ways.  That's happened to me loads of times in big companies. 

Generally, I think you can feel a little bit like you're in limbo when all this is happening, because you're like, "It's happening around me, but it also feels like it's happening to me".  And generally, you might feel like you're stalling, because you're just like, "There are less opportunities".

Helen Tupper: I was talking to someone last week who was saying they're at an organisation on change, they're merging some teams together, and as a result of the merging, they were no longer reporting into the same person; they were reporting into someone who reported into.  So, they'd gone from reporting to a director to reporting to a manager who reports to the director.  And they said, even though their job hadn't changed, it felt like a bit of a demotion, because they'd lost that connection to that person who's kind of influential on the organisation.  And I think it just feels like some of the control, and maybe the agency you have over your career, has been taken away from you.  And that, I think, can feel emotionally hard, because you're a bit disappointed about it.  And then, it can also feel, I think, just practically hard, like, "What do I do now?  I can't necessarily stop this organisational change, so what can I do about it?" which is what we're going to try and help people with. 

I don't think this is just how do you respond to it now, I think the podcast today is much more about how do you develop the skill so that when change happens to you, you are able to bring back that autonomy and agency over what you do next.  Because the reality is, this will not be the only time you experience change in your career, and change often doesn't feel comfortable, and people might say, "It will lead to opportunities".  But in the moment, you're like, "But it still feels rubbish.  Right now, it feels rubbish".

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.  When we were both reflecting on this beforehand, we could both think of loads of examples, so we were like, "This has happened to us lots of times, so it feels like a skill worth learning".  And it almost feels like you do have a bit of a choice.  You can just be like, "Well, this is all rubbish, this is a disaster".  And then, actually, you can end up feeling really demotivated.  And it doesn't mean that some of it isn't hard, because some of it will be.  Or you can try and take back a bit of control.  And it still probably won't be perfect, because it's not what you would have ideally wanted.  But I do think it makes it better at least for a bit.  I always think you buy yourself some time.  In these scenarios, like every one that we talked about, and we'll share some of them today, I always felt like, "I'm going to buy myself some time to figure out, is this actually going to work out better than I thought?  Maybe it will.  As everyone settles down, maybe actually I'll enjoy this.  Or maybe I'll want to apply for another role internally, maybe I'll even want to leave, but I don't want to dread every day, and I don't want to get distracted by all of this stuff that's happening", because then you just start to lose your sense of energy, I think, for what you're doing.

Helen Tupper: Also, you just give a lot to work, don't you?  And so, I think when work doesn't go your way, you want to feel like, "Well, I've still got something else I can do, there's still something positive I can do in this situation".  So, the way that we are going to structure this so it's as practical as possible, and so that I think it becomes a skill for you now, but also in the future, is we're going to think about how you can make the best of where you are right now, and how you can also take action to go beyond it and feel better.  So, there are some practical ideas.  We've got three practical ideas for in the moment, right now, what can you do in response to it; and then also, what are some other things that you can do which will just make you feel a bit better, hopefully give you that momentum, motivation to go beyond where you are right now.

Sarah Ellis: So, let's start with making the best of where you are, because normally, most of us are not in a situation where we're just like, "Well, that's it, I'm just going to do something completely different".  So, we are going to usually stay still for now.  And so, action one is talk to your manager about the areas you know you can influence, because I think sometimes we end up having conversations with our managers, and we hear this from managers all the time, and they really want to help.  I was with some managers the other week and I said, "What's the best thing about your job as a manager?" because they are hard jobs to do.  And they all said, in their own ways, they love developing people, they love to see their teams grow and explore new things.  Managers get so much satisfaction from that, but there are also quite a lot of areas that managers now are not in control of.  So, a lot of the change that we've just described here, managers won't be able to do anything about; it's their reality too.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, it's happening to them.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.  And so, we were thinking, well, have a really specific conversation with your manager about the things that you know that they have some control over.  So, that could be the projects that you're working on, maybe what you want to learn, it could be some things to do with budget, costs can be challenging.  But it might be, maybe there is a bit of budget for something as a team that you'd find interesting.  Maybe there might be a bit of budget for something you want to learn, or probably more likely, something you want to work on.  A manager will usually know you're not in your ideal job, that's usually quite obvious.  If you've gone from something where you've got to be really creative, and maybe some of that creativity has been taken away, it's probably you're having an honest conversation about, "Well, it wouldn't have been my first choice".  So, then talking to your manager about going, "Well, what could I work on that still gets me that opportunity, or gives me that opportunity, to flex my creative skills in a new way or in a different way?  Can we come up with some ideas?"  Your manager can often spot opportunities and can see things coming that you can't see. 

So, I just think talking to them about it, you're sort of doing a bit of job-crafting, but it's job-crafting in the context of, you probably can't change loads, but there might just be the odd thing you could get involved in, or say yes to, that could just give you that bit of extra motivation in what is quite a tough time.

Helen Tupper: Well, I was thinking as well, you won't like this because you'll think it's a bit manipulative, but I was thinking that if it was me, I would probably say, so if you were my manager, I would probably say to you, "I appreciate I'm no longer able to work on that project, because it's being cancelled because of budget cuts".

Sarah Ellis: "Because I'm in a different team now".

Helen Tupper: Yeah, "That was on my learning plan.  I appreciate that's no longer possible.  An alternative that I think could be interesting would be for me to lead this thing for the team.  I'd like to talk to you about that".  But if you highlight what's been taken away from you, I think somebody would be more likely to support you with the smaller, more different thing.  Whereas, if I just said, "I would like to do this thing for the team", you might be thinking, "Gosh, there's a lot going on".  But I think you could almost use, "Now you've taken this away from me…" I mean, I'm not quite saying it like that!

Sarah Ellis: Well, it's not, I suppose, the manager.

Helen Tupper: It's not the manager, it's the organisation, "As a result of the change, I know this is no longer possible", so I think you're showing a bit of maturity that like, "I get it, but it doesn't mean that it's not important to me, and I would like to talk to you about how else I could do it".

Sarah Ellis: I think I did do that actually, in a non-manipulative way, let's just say.  Because I remember, one of the roles that I was doing, big restructure, my role went and was replaced by a more senior role, and I'd only just started doing my version of the role.  So, I had to apply for that more senior version and I didn't get that.  That was my bargaining chip, was like, "Okay, well look, I was doing a good job in that other job that has now been taken away, and I understand why, and I really want to stay.  And so, here are some things that I would like to do".  And so, I remember just going, "I would be interested…" and I gave them options.  I wasn't just saying, "It must be this".  But I was like, "I'd be interested in that, or something a bit like this, or something there", and you could see them trying to figure out, "Okay, how can we create those opportunities, or how can we make those opportunities?"  And again, they weren't doing things especially for me, I'm not that good, but you could see them trying to figure out back to, they could see things that I couldn't see.  So, they were like, "Actually, we know there's going to be a vacancy coming up here", or, "Actually, we will need somebody to lead this team, what about that?"  And so, I could see they were then trying to work hard for me, because I had got this bargaining chip of, "Well, a job I loved and was doing really well has now gone".

Helen Tupper: Yeah.

Sarah Ellis: So, I think that is okay to do.

Helen Tupper: It reminds me of, I go on about this all the time, but the BATNA, which is what is learnt in my P&G sales training 20-odd years ago, the Best Alternative To a Negotiated Agreement, which is like, if the thing you want is impossible, what's your best alternative, and present people with that.  And it gives them something else to say yes to.  And I think with the managers, you're just trying to present them with a realistic yes, because you hope they want to help, but you need to work out what they can actually help with.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.

Helen Tupper: So, the second thing to make the best of where you are is to spot opportunities to do things that you've not done before.  And the idea here is that you want to really think about, "How can I gather some new experiences?  How can I use this change that I'm going through to develop myself beyond my current day job?"  So, I might be thinking, if I go back to some of the changes that I went through, I think probably one of the most significant, and probably just because it was the most recent big change for me in corporate life, was the Microsoft one.  So, for context, went to Microsoft to do a job as Director of Audience Evangelism, that was it.  Don't ask me what I did!

Sarah Ellis: Catchy title!

Helen Tupper: Catchy, catchy!  And I did it for a couple of months, then went to have my daughter, and then I came back to a really big restructure, and that role and that team was being radically changed.  It was quite a big change at a time when I probably felt quite insecure and vulnerable anyway, because I was new in the job, young baby, all that kind of stuff, and there were some different opportunities being presented to me.  And my focus was, "How can I use this to learn to do things I've not done before, learn different bits about the business", and for me, that kind of, "Well, just look at this with fresh eyes, spot the learning, spot the newness", because the worst thing that can happen is you don't get that new role.  Your job has gone, you don't get the new one, that's the worst-case scenario here. 

So actually, "What I want to do here is to accumulate some positive experiences, some new evidence of learning, so that when I'm actually talking about other positions, I've got something useful and relevant to talk to people about".  And I think, again, that's something that you've got control over.  It doesn't have to be going on a course, I mean it could look like that, but it could just be, "Well, what's a project that I've not been involved in; or what's a part of this business that I don't have a lot of knowledge of; or what's a group of people that I've not worked with before?" and just use this as the moment that you go, "Well, now's the time".  Because you could always do that stuff, you could always do stuff for the first time, but maybe now's the time, and it's the things that might make me feel a bit better about this moment, which is at least I'm getting some new knowledge.

Sarah Ellis: New experiences, something to talk about in an interview, if nothing else.  And I remember a few of the roles and the teams that I've been part of where you're like, "Well, this is not ideal", I would always think, "Well, at least I'm building some relationships, I'm creating some connections, I'm learning something new, even if I don't want to do it again".  You're like, "Well, that's okay", and probably recognising that in Squiggly Careers, the likelihood of you doing that thing for that long anyway, you're like, well, other things, there'll be more change coming soon, and so this is not going to be forever.  You know that phrase of, "This is good enough for now"?  I can pinpoint moments in my career where I was like, "Well, this is good enough for now", and I did lots of things that we're going to talk about today, and I think it actually really helped me to go, "For now doesn't mean forever", as just a frame.

Helen Tupper: Yeah.  There's probably some really pragmatic quotes.  They're not that motivational, but you're like, "This is good enough for now", and, "This too will pass".  They're not the most motivational quotes, but you're like, "Do you know what?  Fair point!"

Sarah Ellis: It's like, "Okay.  It's okay".

Helen Tupper: "It's okay, it happens to lots of people.  I just need to make the best of this situation for me".

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.  And then, I think this is my favourite action to make the best of where you are, particularly for when it's feeling really hard.  And we really like this idea of setting a one-word intention.  And the idea here is that you're picking a word that reflects how you want to act, show up and come across, during this period of time.  It's something that you can choose and you can control, so that's always a good thing.  I also just think it helps to frame your thinking.  So, I remember one of the biggest moments of change and restructure that was really hard for me, I think I was seven-and-a-half months pregnant and going through a big restructure, both for me and my team.  But I remember just thinking, "I want to be really pragmatic".  My one word at that moment was 'pragmatic'.

Helen Tupper: What, versus 'dramatic'?!  Like, "Oh, this is a disaster for everyone!"

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.  I mean, I don't think I'm ever that dramatic.

Helen Tupper: No, you're not.

Sarah Ellis: Maybe that could have been my moment to be really dramatic!  But I was like, "I want to be pragmatic", and there were lots of other words as well, but that guided me through a couple of months.  I think that helped me to find my way and just be like, "That's naturally my personality".  I could see people responding and reacting in quite different ways to that and I didn't think it was serving them; I actually think it was working against, rather than for them.  And so, I just kept coming back to that, "Okay, well…" I think I was being realistic, because being pragmatic means being realistic.  What about a couple of your words from different situations?

Helen Tupper: Quick-change summary of Helen's career, let's work back in time from most recent.  So, I guess our change, we went through a period of changing challenge in the pandemic, when Amazing If had previously been very in-person in terms of how we delivered career development to companies, and then suddenly, that was not possible.  And I think my word at that time was, "Just stay calm", which is quite similar to your pragmatic one.  But then, I think in the Microsoft situation, which would have been the one before that, 'open' was the word, I was just open, like, "Just be open to where the opportunities are in this organisation for you".  There could have been lots of different functions, and that, I think, affected how I had conversations with people, because I wasn't blinkered about what that could look like.

Then, I think before that, when I was at Virgin, I basically closed down a company and I was trying to start up a new one and didn't know how that would go, and that was hard because it affected me and affected the team.  And that one, the word, I would say, was 'creative'.  I was just like, "Show you're creative, be creative".  And I think these one-word intentions are like an anchor for your mindset like, "This is how I want to be, this is how I want to show up for the people that work with me, this is how I want to…"  And also, I now look back on those moments and the creative and the openness and the staying calm, and I'm proud.  All of those were actually quite hard, but I'm proud of my response with those words in mind.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, when I've looked back at other examples, 'creative' came up for me a few times, because I think you're often thinking creatively, to find your way around or through the moments.  And I also think I had moments where they were about connection, actually maybe where it was less hard.  So, I had some times where you find yourself in a role that's fine, but perhaps not exactly what you would want.  But it was a big restructure and it wasn't super-stressful, it was more, "Okay, well this is good enough for now".  And in those moments, actually, I focused on connection, because it was more about, "Well, what are the relationships that I can build while I'm doing this job, because I don't think I'm going to be doing this job for that long, I don't think I'm necessarily the right fit for this role, but I can build relationships, I can create connection", and that was almost in the organisation, out the organisation.  And actually, that's what helped me stay really motivated in that role, because almost the content of the role wasn't quite right for me, but the connections sort of kept me going.  Also then, that kind of seeps into the day job.  You probably then do your day job better because you're feeling okay.

Helen Tupper: I don't think at the time I wrote down that word.  I think it was probably in my mind, you know, these one-word intentions.  I think now, I would.  If we were going through a time of change now, I'd be like, "Right, what's the one word?"  And I'd probably put it down somewhere in the same way you'd almost use a vision board.  I think I'd put it down and I would see it and I'd come back to it and I'd think, "Okay, what does that look like this week?  If that's the word, what does it look like this week".

Sarah Ellis: I don't think I'd ever write it down.  I think I'm too in my own head generally, in my own world.  But I think because I think about things so much, and I can think of a few of these examples, I think in my head, I have really thought about this.

Helen Tupper: Got a little mental tattoo!

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I think I have, and I'm like, "Right, I am going to be this way", and I really make that decision.  And then, once I've made that decision, I'm usually quite determined.  So, it just sort of sticks, it sticks in my brain.

Helen Tupper: I believe this about you!

Sarah Ellis: So, what can we do to go beyond to feel better?

Helen Tupper: First one here, get a move mentor.  So, this idea of going beyond to feel better is, let's take yourself out of this challenging, changing situation.

Sarah Ellis: Less than ideal, yeah.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, let's just take yourself out for a moment and think, "Well, what can I do that's outside of this to feel better about it?"  Move mentors are brilliant.  So, a move mentor is somebody who's probably got some expertise and insight into an area you might want to move into.  So, they might know you and your talents and your skills quite well, they might know the area that you're interested in quite well.  And a conversation with a move mentor might sound like, "This is something I want to be know for, that I want to use more.  These are some areas I'm interested in.  I'd really like your advice on how I can connect my talents to those positions, or how I could come across to the people in those areas so they would have a curious career conversation with me.  I would appreciate your advice".  And those move mentors are great for confidence.  So, I think once you've got clarity for yourself and you'd have a conversation with somebody else, I think you'd then feel more confident about the next conversation.  So, they're brilliant for clarity and confidence.

Also, to your point on connection previously, I think they're really good for making connections, because they probably know someone.  That's why you've gone to them.  They might know someone in there and they can make an introduction for you.  They can sort of ease your way into the areas that you're interested in.  So, I would say to begin with, spot some potential move mentors, so the people that know you well, they know the areas that you're interested in going into quite well.  And then, I think it's a bit of an ask-for-help thing like, "I'd love to talk to you about my development, I've got some different things I'd like to do".

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.  And I think you don't have to know them.  I think most people are flattered to be asked to share their advice and their experience.

Helen Tupper: I don't think I'd call them a move mentor.  I don't think I'd say, "Sarah, would you be my move mentor?"

Sarah Ellis: No, I wouldn't, no.

Helen Tupper: That's quite high commitment.

Sarah Ellis: I think you'd be saying, "I'm really interested to learn more about the area that you lead, or that you work in.  Can we have a coffee?" basically.  And I'd probably try and be specific enough, but I never want to put pressure on people, or for it to fee too formal, or, "This is a really big commitment, you've got to have loads of conversations with me".  So, I probably wouldn't even use the word 'mentor' or 'mentoring'.  I think I'd be asking for advice, perspective and a coffee, virtual or in real life.  The other way you could approach this is, yes, you could talk to people who are already in those positions and those teams where you would like to go.  You could also talk to people, who I think would also be useful move mentors, who have moved successfully around your organisation.  Maybe they have made the move you want to make, so go and talk to them, like what helped them to do that.

Helen Tupper: Sort of successful squigglers!

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, what have they done well?  They've squiggled and stayed, and that doesn't always feel that easy, but they've done that.  I was doing a focus group with some people about careers the other week and this lady had done squiggle and stay in this big organisation so successfully for 16 years, or something.  And I was just listening to her and I was like, "You're the perfect role model!"  But also, what was so interesting, I was facilitating that focus group, was that everybody else really wanted to hear from her.  She was sharing her story.  She was essentially doing move-mentoring during my focus group, and I was like, "This is brilliant!"  And then, you could see she was offering to help.  She was like, "Oh, you can come and have a chat with me", and I was like, "That's what people need".  And actually, whether you wanted to go and do what she has done almost mattered less than just what has helped her to navigate those moves.  And I think you could almost talk to both, right, like they'd both give you a useful perspective.

Helen Tupper: So, our second idea here for how you can go beyond to feel better is to opt into some selfish times.

Sarah Ellis: I love this one!

Helen Tupper: This one feels a bit naughty, but when all this stuff is happening to you, I think it's okay to go, "How do I get a bit of selfish time?"  And that might look different for different people.  So, it could just look like, "Do you know what, I'm going to be a bit more boundaried.  I'm going to finish work on time.  This is a hard moment, it's happening to me and I'm going to actually take something back for me".

Sarah Ellis: Take your lunch break.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, and I don't think you have to be like, "Well, I'm leaving at 4.30!"

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, militant!

Helen Tupper: I think you can just explain, "Do you know what, I need to do this for me right now", and say it in a way that people can get and empathise with.  So, it could look like finishing on time, it could look like having your lunch break, it could look like where you want to work.  So, you might say, "Every Friday, I'm going to work from… because that is better for my energy".  And I think just think about what is selfish maybe for you, and how can you communicate to the people you work with.  What have you done that you would think worked for you as maybe this sort of selfish time?

Sarah Ellis: So, I really remember being in one role where I'd always take my full lunch break.  I'd never start work early.  I used to sit almost outside the building, reading my book, refusing to go in --

Helen Tupper: During this change?

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.  Well, yeah, it was a change and also, I was in a role that I wasn't loving, things were changing around me.  It wasn't a disaster, but I didn't want to spend more time at work, because it wasn't that fun.  So, I'd get to the office, and then you'd get there a bit early, and I'd sit and read my book outside until I had to go in.  And I'd wait.  I was like, "I'm not going to go and sit at my desk", and also, this was in the days where you had to sit at your desk.  And then, I'd take a lunch break, and I could only afford -- coffee was a lot more affordable than it is today, but I could only afford one coffee.  And so, I'd have my one coffee at that lunch break and I'd take the rest of my lunch in, and then I'd just sort of wander around the place, the location where this office was. 

Actually, when I plot the moments where I've been less happy in a job, or there's been lots of change around me, I also often end up doing lots of learning outside of work.  So, suddenly, I'm going to loads of lectures at the V&A about loads of random stuff, because I'm just like, "Well, I'm clearly not getting the creativity or the learning from my day job".  Or I'm signing up to a philosophy course at the School of Life.  These are all real examples.  Did that for a bit.  I mean, you can literally map it and be like, "Yeah, work wasn't that great in that moment.  So, I think I just found other things.  And it also ends up being a forcing reason to leave, because I just like those kinds of things in the evening and I was in London, so there's lots to choose from.  And so, I would just be like, "Well, I'm leaving on time because I'm off to a lecture on how Burberry use holographs for catwalks".  I really remember that!

Helen Tupper: You are totally taking it back to when Burberry were doing amazing stuff!

Sarah Ellis: I remember really going to a lecture all about that!  And I was just going to loads of things and I was just, I suppose, containing work in a way that probably is quite healthy.

Helen Tupper: On an ongoing basis.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, but I don't think -- I suppose I do like having work that feels part of me and that I really care about, I'm really committed to.  So, I wouldn't have wanted to be like that forever.  I would want to keep some of those things that I got to do because I was being more boundaried, and I don't think I could have lasted for ages, but it probably just keeps me going to the next day, something to look forward to.

Helen Tupper: I think I would have probably been unapologetic about wanting to work from home, not five days a week, but this is pre-pandemic.  But I found that in times of change, having some time outside of it was actually important to me.  So, I definitely didn't even really ask, I just said, "This is what I'm going to do on certain days".  And I think the other thing I was selfish about, or unapologetic, that feels like a nicer word to me, I didn't say sorry, was spending time with communities, because I found that was quite useful.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, you are good at that.

Helen Tupper: I don't apologise for it, I'm like, "I will be going to this", because I'd think, "That's where I get my energy from and I need the energy in times of change.  And also, it's where I get a lot of opportunities from.  So, if this opportunity's going, I'm most likely to find it in this group of people".

Sarah Ellis: And then, our final action here is about choosing your change story.  So, I think when you are having a less than fun time at work, whether it's a really difficult moment, a really knotty moment, or whether it's just like, "This is just not what I would have chosen", we talk about work all the time -- actually, it's been really sunny in London this week and I was sitting outside on the South Bank on some concrete blocks, which weren't very comfortable, but lots of people were sitting on these concrete blocks, and so you know you can overhear conversations?

Helen Tupper: Yeah.

Sarah Ellis: And I must have heard three or four pairs of people having chats all about work.  It's what you chat to your friends about, it was also in the day, so probably people maybe on lunch breaks and chatting.  But you know you try not to listen too much, because some of the stuff people say is about their jobs and I'm like --

Helen Tupper: "I've got a podcast for that!"

Sarah Ellis: "-- Could I recommend a podcast on how to manage your manager?"  Probably not appropriate!  So, I was reading this book about judgement thinking, "I'm slightly distracted by this person talking about their manager".  But what was interesting is, I think, when you do talk to people about what's happening at work, I do think you've got a choice to make about how you share that story.  Now, there'll be some people you talk to where you're just honest and you're like, "It is feeling hard, I'm not enjoying it".  But if you're saying that to everyone all of the time, you're reinforcing how hard it is and I think you're making yourself feel worse rather than better.  Now, this is not about minimising, "This is hard".  So, I think you still have to say that to each other.  Like, I would always say that to you, and I would give you the unfiltered version.  I'm like, you get the unfiltered, 100% Sarah, this is how I'm feeling, because you're my best friend.  So, I'm like, "Let's ignore the work thing, the fact we work together now", so that might be different.  I might have to tell someone else these days!

Helen Tupper: "Helen is an absolute nightmare!"

Sarah Ellis: Let's imagine before we worked together!  But then I think, well, if I'm talking to someone who's maybe a previous boss, or one of my friends who's kind of a work friend, if I'm continually saying, "Oh, this is feeling really hard", or, "I'm hating it", or, "I don't like this job I'm in", you just end up in this loop that gets you down.  And I do think you can do a bit of a reframe of going, "Do you know what, it's not ideal, but I am learning this".  I actually heard one person do this really well the other week, when I was having these conversations where he was like, "I don't think this job is right for me, but I've got a brilliant manager".  And I could see he was obviously aware enough to know he's not doing something he wants to be doing really, but he was like, "I've got a brilliant manager who's on my side, she's really helping me".  And so, he just managed that story a bit, and he was smiling as well when he was talking about her, and I was like, "Oh, that's so great that you've got someone to talk to", and he's like, "Yeah, we're having really honest conversations and that's working really well. 

So, even in the context of, "I am doing a job I don't want to do", he had found a bit of the upside, the kind of, what does feel good about it, and that's what he said to me, as someone he's not met.  Or he could have just said, "I'm not really enjoying it at the moment, there's been loads of change and now, I'm in a role that I don't like". 

Helen Tupper: Also, to be the person on the other end of that conversation, other than empathy in the moment of, "Gosh, that sounds tough", it's kind of hard to do anything else.  Whereas if you said, "At least I've got a good manager", you can go, "Oh, that's great.  Have you tried this?"  I think it gives that other person you're talking to more of a way to support you, rather than just, "Oh!"  I think you can also look back as well.  So, you can do it in the present moment like, "What's a reframe of this situation that's actually helpful for my motivation?"  But you can also look back at previous, your change story from when this has happened before.  So, I could go, "Okay, what's my Microsoft change story?  Okay, was it hard?  Yes.  Was I vulnerable?  Yes.  Did actually the relationships that I made help me to identify new opportunities?  Yes.  Did I start well in the new thing that I got given?  Yes", and then I can go, "Okay, I can do that".  And I think that can also build a little bit of maybe looking at your previous change stories as well as not just, "That was hard".  But it can also give you a little bit of confidence, I think, that you can create things from hard times.

Sarah Ellis: So, just to summarise, making the best of where you are: action 1, talk to your manager about the areas they can influence; action 2, spot opportunities to do things that you've not done before; action 3, set a one-word intention.  Go beyond to feel better: action 1, get a move mentor; action 2, opt in for some unapologetic or selfish time; and action 3, choose your change story.

Helen Tupper: And we will summarise all of those in the PodSheet.  You're get that in Squiggly Careers in Action, if you sign up.  Or if you do not want an email, just go to our website, amazingif.com, and you'll find it all there.

Sarah Ellis: And that's everything for this week.  Thank you so much for listening and we'll be back with you again soon.  Bye for now.