Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction

00:02:06: Different behaviour profiles…

00:04:26: …1: the Heated Hexagon

00:06:19: …2: the Database Diamond

00:07:29: …3: the Talkative Triangle

00:09:26: …4: the Consensus-seeking Circle

00:12:09: The four profiles summed up

00:13:50: Understanding how differences can be helpful

00:15:40: Making the most of…

00:16:09: …Heated Hexagons

00:17:52: …Talkative Triangles

00:20:11: …Database Diamonds

00:24:18: Recognising the pressure points

00:26:01: …Consensus-seeking Circle

00:30:49: Summary

00:33:15: Final thoughts  

Interview Transcription

Helen Tupper: Hi, I'm Helen.

Sarah Ellis: And I'm Sarah.

Helen Tupper: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast, a weekly podcast to help you with your career development.  With the ins, outs, ups and downs of work, we want to be a helpful source of support for you in your career.  And if you would like some more support beyond this episode, there's lots of other things that we have got to help you.

You can join us in PodPlus, which is a weekly conversation for 30 minutes every Thursday morning at 9.00am.  It is free, and it is a community of people who just dive a bit deeper into the topic that we've been discussing.  You can download our PodSheets; they're summaries of whatever we talk about, lots of coach-yourself questions, and a lot of the resources that we mention are there as well.  And all those things, and links to our PodMail, which is a weekly email which has everything in it, are all in the show notes for this episode.  If you ever can't find any of those resources, you can just email us at helen&sarah@squigglycareers.com.

Sarah Ellis: This week's topic is how to work with different people.  I don't think this is something that any of us find easy and, spoiler alert, there's no formula for success, that if we do XYZ, it equals brilliant relationships all of the time.  But we thought it was helpful to do a bit of a deep dive into difference, because we are all working on lots more projects, different people who have different experiences to us. We are often changing the people that we work with more frequently; so, this idea of building brilliant relationships, I think that's always been important in our careers, but particularly now in Squiggly Careers, where we are doing so many more different things with so many different people.  This just feels like something where if you can understand what this looks like for you, and also understand other people better, it can only ever be a helpful thing as part of your Squiggly Career.

Helen Tupper: And probably a good starting point is, if you don't already know because you're not a regular listener, Sarah and I are very different to each other.  So, we'll probably use some of our differences to bring to life how we have found ways to work together effectively; but also, at points in times where that difference can create difficulty and what we've done to overcome it. We're going to draw on something that we created for You Coach You, which was all about the different ways that we show up at work, and we're going to talk them through so that first of all, you can understand a little bit about what makes you unique, in terms of how you might work, and what makes you different to other people; but then also to explore how that difference can affect how you build relationships with other people, both positively, but also when it can create some challenges. So, first of all, we'll explore your difference, what makes you unique; then we'll think about how that might impact the relationships that you build, and the things that you might want to do differently as a result of your difference, if that isn't too much different in one sentence!

Sarah Ellis: And it is worth saying that as we go through these profiles, they are particularly based on some of the behaviours that might happen when we are put under pressure.  So, perhaps not us at our best, worth remembering that, and also we're not trying to put people in boxes or give people labels, because I never think that is particularly useful.  I'm always a bit wary of anything that tells you, you are a certain thing, because that feels quite fixed, and that almost we can't adapt and learn and grow and do things differently, which we know is true, and certainly true of all of our listeners. But I think often, when you have got difference, it is worth sometimes figuring out when that difference can create friction, or challenging conversations; or even could go as far as conflict.  If we're really going to figure out how to build lots of different sorts of brilliant relationships, it's almost like the spiky moments that feel particularly tough can be a good place to start to get data for your development, I would say.

Helen Tupper: Well I think as well, in those points of pressure in our work, it's often when the difference stands out the most, isn't it?  Day-to-day, we're all chatting, collaborating, exploring and then it's all quite nice conversation.

Sarah Ellis: Being our brilliant selves!

Helen Tupper: Being our brilliant selves, everybody.  But it's actually, I think, when there's a time pressure or there's a decision that needs to be made that you go, "Oh, we are coming at this from quite a different perspective", and I think it's when the differences are much more distinct.  So, that's why, when we talk about the profiles, we've tried to pick those moments when the difference is most distinct, so that you can identify with it a bit more easily.  So, shall we take it in turns to talk them through?

Sarah Ellis: Go on then, go for it.

Helen Tupper: Okay, so the first profile, and as we talk them through, just be thinking about, "Which one sounds like me?"

Sarah Ellis: Which feels most familiar for you?

Helen Tupper: Yeah.  So, the first one is the Heated Hexagon.  So, if this one feels like you, behaviours that you might be able to spot in yourself are, when you might get a bit fixed on a certain way of doing something, or a perspective that you might have.  It's almost like you kind of get to, your answer is the right answer; or, you might recognise that you have a tendency to act first and listen later; or, perhaps you feel yourself prioritising progress over other people.  At times, at worst, this can be you being a bit snappy or impatient or quite demanding of other people.  Sarah's laughing.  Go on, why are you laughing!

Sarah Ellis: Because we're in the same room together today, which sometimes makes a difference; but you actually sent me a WhatsApp message today saying, "I'm not being snappy!" you know, when you deny the behaviour like, "I'm not snapping; honestly, I'm not snapping".  I'm like, "Okay", when you wrote that.  I was just thinking, because you wrote that bullet point, "snappy", and I was like, "You've literally used that in a sentence on a WhatsApp message!

Helen Tupper: #snappynotsnappy!

Sarah Ellis: Yeah!

Helen Tupper: We should definitely use that one again!

Sarah Ellis: And also, what it sometimes sounds like, you've described as, "It might sound like…"  I'm like, "What do you mean it might sound like?"  You're basically just describing the things that you say.  We're overthinking this, we need to move on, let's make some progress!

Helen Tupper: So at times, everybody, I think I might possibly be a Heated Hexagon; that's not why we've gone with that one first!  But I think me under pressure defaults -- my difference is most distinctive being a Heated Hexagon.  So, that's me.  Shall we go to you next, Sarah, or are you just going to talk objectively about a different one?

Sarah Ellis: Do you want me to do my one, or just do a different one?

Helen Tupper: Keep it!

Sarah Ellis: Okay, I'll just do a different one, so we'll get to my one.  The next one, we've called the Database Diamond.  When you are working with Database Diamonds, some of the behaviours you might spot when they're at their points of pressure is they really interrogate information, so they deep dive into data and details; they keep digging often, and maybe prioritise sometimes evidence over empathy, so again a bit less about people and a bit more about, "Show me the facts". 

Maybe facts over feelings is another good way to think about that. They can be quite stubborn and sometimes store progress, maybe not prepared to move on until they get the data they're looking for.  And you will often hear Database Diamonds request quite directly, "Where's your proof; where's the evidence for that; what's the data?  We need to understand this better, before we just jump into a decision".  Very different to the Heated Hexagons, but people who just look for that information; quite information-based, quite fact-based, I think. We can all see how these things are really useful, but under pressure that can become unhelpful, because they get stuck on that deep diving for detail.

Helen Tupper: So, you might start to note, as we talk about the third profile, which is the Talkative Triangle, that all these profiles have a shape, which we will explain why in a second, but just go with it for now.  So, the third profile is the Talkative Triangle.  If this is you, what you might spot is that in a time when there is pressure, or there's things that have got to be done quite quickly, you might talk a bit too much and a bit too fast, and you might get excited, which is not always a bad thing, but sometimes that excitement can come across as being quite emotional in a situation, which can perhaps turn some Database Diamonds off, who might not resonate with that. What you tend to do is the opposite of a Database Diamond.  You're prioritising feelings over fact where, as Sarah said, they're the other way round. 

You often have quite strong opinions, which you share quite freely, and you can sometimes get a bit defensive, or even destructive really in a conversation, if you're feeling excluded.  You would speak up if you felt like it wasn't going the way you wanted it to, and that perhaps might make other people feel uncomfortable in that situation. Because you are feeling first, you might say things like, "You don't understand me [or] you don't understand what I'm trying to do here", you lead with that feeling.  Or, you might be a little bit dramatic and say, "This, this is a bit of a disaster!"  In fact, you probably wouldn't even say, "This is a bit of a disaster", you'd be like, "This is disastrous; it's awful!" it's those sorts of emotions that really you would put first into the conversation.

Sarah Ellis: Maybe a bit of catastrophising, because I think people would recognise that in themselves.  You sort of spiral quite quickly out of control, in terms of the implications of something, and it all just gets almost like everything's an emergency, and you really see Talkative Triangles stress; it's not hidden under the surface, it all comes out, I think. 

That talkativeness radiates and has quite big ripple effects, I think. So, let's do the last one, last but not least, and this is my one, although I don't think we are just one of these.  I think we might talk about this a bit more but because, again, we're not trying to do a profile here, it's more about just recognising behaviours, the more I've thought about this, the more I've realised I'm definitely not one of these all of the time.  One might feel most familiar for you; but then even as we've described another one today, I've thought, "I also do some of those things under pressure as well", so we're not just one thing.  I've almost spotted more things I don't do well; brilliant! So, the last one is the Consensus-seeking Circle.  So, some of the behaviours you might spot when these people are put under pressure: bit uncomfortable making decisions, so you go round in circles, hence the Consensus-seeking Circle, because it feels like, "

Maybe we should just consider someone else's point of view or someone else's perspective"; don't tend to like doing things spontaneously or on the spot or too fast; really want consensus over questions. So, as somebody who's like this some of the time myself, you almost put harmony above asking good questions, or making sure you've got everybody's point of view, because you're so keen for everybody to get on, which sounds like I've just picked the nicest one! 

But actually, it's really destructive, because the problem with Consensus-seeking Circles is people don't say what they think.  So, what you can then do is actually be almost political outside of conversations, because you withdraw under pressure, so you get passive aggressive. I think we've probably talked about this before, but you know it sometimes sounds like, "As long as you're happy, I'm happy", and it's like, anyone who says that, you're obviously not happy; or you might just go, "I'm not sure, I think we need to think about this a bit more", and I do say that quite a lot.  My partner gets frustrated, because I'll say to him, "I'm just going to think about that a bit", and he's like, "Well, when does the thinking end?"  He always asks me, and he's a Database Diamond for sure.

He will say, and he kind of makes a joke of it, but he's like, "Yeah, but when's that closing; when does the thinking time close?" and I suspect it's really frustrating.  It can be quite frustrating to spend time with Consensus-seeking Circles if they're under pressure, because you're not making progress and it just feels almost fakely nice.  It's like everyone's doing stuff and then no one's actually moving forward. I don't actually think I'm a Consensus-seeking Circle all the time, but I recognise some of those behaviours.  I think sometimes, I actually do go slightly into Database Diamond under pressure.  I could give you examples over the last two weeks when that's happened.

Helen Tupper: I've seen it more, it's interesting actually, I've definitely seen it more in the past six months, perhaps because our pressure has increased, I've seen you reverting to that.  First of all, this is a point of reflection for you.  What makes you different and when are you different, is interesting. So, just to repeat the four profiles for you, so you've got the Heated Hexagon, the Database Diamond, the Talkative Triangle, and the Consensus-seeking Circle.  What is useful, we think, for you to do now is to draw your shape.  So for example, my shape would be a hexagon; I can be quite heated, as we talked about, under certain situations, but probably with a bit of triangle, I would do myself.

Sarah Ellis: Like a smaller triangle, but a bigger hexagon?

Helen Tupper: Yeah, I would go, my lead shape would be that hexagon and all the challenges that come with that sometimes, and also that Talkative Triangle, when I get a bit too excited and I'm trying to almost push things through with my energy, rather than my empathy, would be what I would think about.  So, if you were to draw your shape or shapes, Sarah, what would you do?

Sarah Ellis: So, I would draw a circle, almost with a small diamond in it; but maybe a diamond, to your point, that is getting bigger, which is interesting, especially for somebody who isn't very database generally.  It's not a skillset that I have; I find it interesting.  I think the Consensus-seeking Circle, the circle is getting smaller, and the diamond is getting bigger, because I think we do change, and also I think we react to our surroundings and our situation. So I think, to your point, I am almost shifting, and as we've said, this is not necessarily us at our best.  I think I'm shifting in response a little bit to what I'm experiencing in our organisation.  Whereas, I think when I was in really big companies, my Consensus-seeking Circle was definitely bigger, and I don't think I would have recognised Database Diamond.  I think I was surrounded by people who were so Database Diamonds, I'd be like, "I'm a million miles away from that".  But in my world today, I feel like I'm always changing shape.  It's fascinating.

Helen Tupper: Okay, so hopefully you've now got an idea of your shape, which could be a combination of shapes, a diamond within a circle, or whatever it might look like.  So, now we've got a better idea of you and your difference, the next thing to do is understand a bit more about the people you work with that are different to you.

So, what we want to do is think about, who is one person that you work with at the moment who is most different to you?  As we said, Sarah and I are going to use that, because we are so different in terms of how we show up at work and the things that we bring to our work.  So hopefully, it will be a useful way of bringing this to life. Now, we've already talked about why sometimes, that difference might make it hard, so for example Sarah's need for data or consensus-seeking approach might go against me when I'm in hot-headed hexagon mode.  We already understand a little bit about what might make that difference hard, but what we want to think a bit more about is why it can be helpful; because actually, if we all thought the same and behaved the same, it wouldn't lead to better decisions, it would lead to a giant, big echo chamber that would start to hold us back in our career. So, difference can be really helpful, but we need to appreciate it a little bit more.  So think about, first of all, who is that person who is most different to you at work, and then why could that difference be helpful.  So, shall we do this for each other, Sarah?

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, go on then.  Do you want me to go first for you?

Helen Tupper: Yes.

Sarah Ellis: You're like, "Give me some positive feedback"!

Helen Tupper: I'm ready, I'm ready!

Sarah Ellis: Also, I think the reason this is good to do is, so often I think we default to that person that you'll all be thinking of now, who is very different to you, I think we default to why it's hard, because that's probably what we've experienced.  Like I'll think, when I've experienced when you want to speed up and I want to slow down, "God, it's hard", and we get almost stuck in the negative loops around difference. So, I think it's really nice to reframe the starting point by going, "When is that difference incredibly helpful; when is that difference at it's best?  What does that look like, sound like, when have you seen that, not just in the hard moments?

Helen Tupper: It's almost like encouraging it, rather than avoiding it, isn't it?

Sarah Ellis: Yes.

Helen Tupper: It's not going to be beneficial all of the time, but understanding when it's really helpful means you can use it more positively.

Sarah Ellis: So now, to be really clear about how do we make the most of that difference, for Heated Hexagons and Talkative Triangles, two top tips for both.  So, I'm not a Heated Hexagon, but I'm working with a Heated Hexagon, so that's what's different about the person that I want to build a better relationship with; what are two things I could do to improve that relationship? The first one is to involve early, have clear objectives and update often. 

So, Heated Hexagons want to be part of the picture, they want to contribute.  Helen was actually saying to me, as we were chatting this through, "Bring me in at the start and the end.  I'm not bothered about the messy middle"; fair enough!  So, you know when you think people like to feel like they understand the progress, but they probably want to be particularly involved at that start.  And if you don't involve someone soon enough, it could be quite destructive.  So, involve early, and also get them very clear on objectives, what you're trying to do and by when. Second, keep things short, simple, specific, and I am talking from experience, listeners.  Short meetings, be clear beforehand about what you need to say and what order.  I honestly sometimes will record a voice message for Helen on WhatsApp, delete it having sent it, and re-record it, because I'll think, "That is not short, simple and specific enough for her", and then I don't believe that she'll listen to it all the way through to the end.  So, that's just one example of that in action.

Helen Tupper: And honest feedback back, I sometimes think they're still too long!  Never short enough, everyone, never short enough!

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I can totally imagine that.  I sometimes even think, "That's going to be too long, but I can't be bothered to do it again, because she's either going to listen to it or not", or I use it for my own thinking.

Helen Tupper: I listen to it sometimes on 2x speed, so that's sometimes helpful.

Sarah Ellis: Oh my God, do you really?

Helen Tupper: Yeah!

Sarah Ellis: Oh my God!  Let's move on, because that's horrendous!  So, Talkative Triangles, and I think I have worked for the odd Talkative Triangle, and I actually do really appreciate what they can bring.  So, I think one idea for action is, give Talkative Triangles the space to be talkative.  So, we don't want to shut them down, because they bring energy and they bring the care and commitment, but signal to them what is out of their remit. So, Talkative Triangles often respond well to really clear roles and responsibilities, so it's almost signalling, "This is your space, this is your moment".  Give Talkative Triangles their moment to shine. 

And our second idea for Talkative Triangles is, be proactive about bringing them in when things are feeling flat, or when you've got a bit stuck.  Almost make the most of giving them a moment, because I have seen Talkative Triangles; they can turn up at any place, any time, and they bring this sense of enthusiasm, and they are often quite optimistic.  And, because they feel things, they'll feel it's flat, but they want it to stay that way. So again, thinking about making the most of their difference, I honestly once worked for one person who, I swear, I could have put her in any situation, she didn't need to know any context, and the ripples of just people suddenly feeling like they wanted to be there a bit more, everyone just enjoyed it a bit more, more smiling; just the most upbeat, smiles, people probably laughing, having a bit more fun.  They bring a sense of fun and feelings, and so notice if you've got projects or meetings at work where you just feel like you need a bit of that brilliance, don't be afraid to quite spontaneously get them involved. For someone like me, something spontaneous like that would feel like my worst nightmare.  I'd ask loads of questions; I'd be like, "What do you need?  Why are we doing that?"  I think Talkative Triangles can often just turn up and just contribute and be brilliant.

Helen Tupper: I like the two points there: give them a moment, because they're going to want one, because they like to have their moment; but then, make the most of it by thinking when that moment is going to be best for everybody.  It's a really, really good point.

Sarah Ellis: So, go on then, you can switch over now!  I feel like I've been really nice to you today; I'm ready to receive why it's so good to be an increasingly Database Diamond and a decreasing Consensus-seeking Circle.

Helen Tupper: Okay, so the two profiles left then are those ones that Sarah just mentioned, and I would think about how you can make the most of that difference.  So, let's start with Sarah's increasing Database Diamond.  Database Diamonds are absolutely brilliant for getting to better decisions, because they will bring you really rich insights that are informed by data and not just opinion.

Sarah Ellis: You're welcome.

Helen Tupper: Thanks for that input!  And so, one way in which you can really get the most out of those Database Diamonds is help them to understand the problem you're trying to solve, and what the priority data that you need is.  The risk is, they just keep digging around data, because they love it and they find it interesting, but it stops being insightful for you after a certain point. But if you can just frame it a little bit for them, "The problem I'm trying to solve at the moment is… and these are the priority data points I think I need", they might come back and challenge you with some other things, but just giving them a little bit of a frame to work within can stop them going off all over the place with their digging around data. The other thing that you can often help a Database Diamond with to really increase their impact is, you can help them connect the data dots so that they can see the bigger picture, because sometimes they can just collect lots of discrete bits of data, and each bit individually could be quite interesting, but it might not really help people collectively see what the story is behind it.  But you can do that for them, you can help them connect those data dots so that they can see, and also sell the bigger story to people about, "What does this actually mean?  What could we do better because of this information?" When you're doing that, you're actually using their time more efficiently, but you're also helping them to have more impact from the work that they've done.  Would you see that in yourself, Sarah?

Sarah Ellis: Less so the second one, I think because fundamentally I'm not a proper Database Diamond.  There are some people who are very good at this.  And I think connecting the data dots to see the big picture, when I've worked with people before who are much more like this, sometimes maybe they don't feel valued.  I have seen that, because it's like, "People dismiss me maybe, because I like the data and I like the facts".  I'm like, "Well no, that's really useful, as long as we make it useful, as long as we figure out where the insight is here and what the so-what is". So I think just sometimes just it helps to increase that individual's impact, but also it helps you to have that sense of togetherness.  Because I think sometimes, with making the most of difference, again we said you start with the difference, whereas -- and yeah, this is a classic building brilliant relationships-type tool is going, "What are we sharing?  What are we trying to achieve together?  What do we have in common?" 

What you might have in common is, "Together we're trying to achieve this goal or this objective, we're just bringing our different selves to that, so let's make the most of that". I think that problem priority data always really helps me, because to your point, I can also get a bit sporadic and be like, "What about this data point; what about that data point?"  Whereas, if someone's very clear with me and says, "This is the problem we're trying to solve [or] this is the opportunity we want to explore, and here are the three bits of data that are the best ways for us to get a feel for, are we making progress", I'll be like, "Good.  Keep updating me on that".  It would stop me just asking for periphery stuff that isn't that helpful.

Helen Tupper: I feel like we would make better decisions as well.  If I'm in Heated Hexagon mode, which is I'm trying to move it forward fast and get it done quickly; and if you were also in Database Diamond mode, like I was really clear about, "This is the information I think we need to make this decision", it would be, your data would be really useful in that moment, so you would probably feel like that was a useful input that you'd had, and I would be able to make a better decision or recommendation because of it. So actually, those two things coming together at a point in time that we might recognise was quite a pressure point for us, could possibly help us both to feel quite useful.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, agreed, because I think at the moment, sometimes we do the opposite.  So, it would be nice to do the positive thing that we've just described versus going, "We haven't got the data, so I want to slow us down, you therefore want to go twice as fast", and then yeah, between us, we both just get a bit frustrated.

Helen Tupper: Let's try the other one!  But I guess for everyone listening, rather than just therapy in our business, think about where are those points of pressure, because that is when it might feel difficult, and think about, "Okay, well if that's a pressure point, a decision we've got coming up or a deadline that's imminent, then actually how could we be both better because of it?" Helen, in Heated Hexagon mode, and Sarah, if you were going to put yourself more toward Database Diamond, how could we leverage that so that in that moment, that was helpful and it didn't hold it back?

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, it's that one plus one equals three.

Helen Tupper: Yes.

Sarah Ellis: And I really like the idea about being specific about the situations, because I think for a lot of the time with us together, one plus one does equal three, because that's us at our best; but probably when we're under pressure, it doesn't.  Whereas, to your point, if you could specifically go, "What are the pressure points that we can spot?"

Helen Tupper: Like a book, or a manuscript has got to be in.  We would know that would be really hard, and we could start to create a bit of conflict.  But if said, "Well look, you at your best at that deadline, Helen, is going to be moving us forward fast", and you might say, "Let's get some input from other people on what are the best chapters, and we'll use that insight to make the decision", it would help us much more, and we could pre-empt that point in time.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I think that would be really smart.  Where we started with pressure points, spot the pressure points, and then almost set yourself the challenge to be even better because of them; which actually also feels like, I mean "fun" might be a stretch, but it does feel like almost an opportunity to really learn.  We talk about create, don't wait for challenge, and do you want to spend more time in your challenge learning zone or your courage learning zone?  For me, I would look forward to those pressure point moments a bit more if I just saw them as, "That's when we're going to really challenge ourselves to be even better" versus just thinking, "This is really stressful".

Helen Tupper: Yeah, "I know this is going to be a disaster, there's got to be a better way of looking at it!"  The fourth profile then was the Consensus-seeking Circle, and they are brilliant because they help people to feel included.  They are amazing at getting other people's perspectives and insights, but we know at times that can loop round a little bit.  So, in order to get the best out of a Consensus-seeking Circle, think about scenario planning and how you can use that in a really constructive way. If you can give them some scenarios for certain situations, like maybe you're looking at, I don't know, planning your business over the next couple of months, or what the team's working on, if you can get them to think about, "What are we missing; what else could we explore?" they will be brilliant at putting that perspective into the discussion, and they'll enjoy doing it as well. The other thing that you can do with a Consensus-seeking Circle to get the best out of them, is give them a little bit of a scale, so that they can focus on progress rather than perfection. 

So, because they like consensus, sometimes what they will be looking for is the perfect solution, so a solution where everybody agrees, we're all aligned and everyone's happy.  That is rarely the outcome that we're going to get to, because we've got four different profiles here and everyone's doing different things at different times.  So, the idea that we're all going to be completely happy all of the time is perhaps a little bit unrealistic. But what you can do is give them a bit of a scale.  So you can say, "On a scale of 1 to 10, how much consensus, collaboration, connection", whatever the thing that they're aiming for, "where were we at today in your opinion in terms of this scale?"  They might be like, "4 out of 10, I don't think we've discussed all of the points, I don't think we've got everybody involved".  The aim really is to say, "Well okay, over the next month", or whatever the timeframe is, "how could we go from a 4 to a 6; what would that look like?" That gives them a bit of control over improving things, making progress, moving things forward, without their aim being perfection; because if their aim is perfection, you'll never stop seeking consensus, which means that you'll never really move things forward.  But if you can get them to focus on, "During this period of time, what could a bit better look like and how could we take control of that collectively?" then it can often feel rewarding for them, and it means that you'll be much more able to move things forward.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and I think anchoring that progress to priorities, when you're thinking about that scale, probably makes that even better, because it's not progress for progress' sake, you're being very clear with a Consensus-seeking Circle, "Our top two priorities for this quarter as a team are 1 and 2.  We're at a 4 at the moment.  How do we get to a 6 on priorities 1 and 2?" because I think sometimes I recognise this behaviour in myself; you want the same levels of consensus all of the time for everything. You're almost like, these are personality traits, they're sort of who we all are in some way, and so almost I don't care whether something's really important or not very important, I sort of always want everyone to always get on, and I find disagreement hard and always quite uncomfortable.  So, my ideal world is always consensus all of the time, but you've got to learn to let that go. 

I think sometimes, Consensus-seeking Circle need help to let that go, to know that it is okay to not all agree.  And that doesn't mean it's not going to work, or we can't do good work; it's not a disaster if everyone doesn't agree all of the time. I think that's probably why my circle has got smaller, because over time I've figured that out.  I've figured out that, "It's okay for you and I to disagree some of the time"; whereas I think probably two years ago, when we were really working together for the first time with so much intensity, I remember when you and I disagreed more frequently in the early days of Amazing If a couple of years ago, I found that much, much harder than I do now.  Now, I feel like I'm getting really used to it!  I don't know what that says about our business; probably falling apart slightly at the seams! But I'm so much more used to it, I just go, "Oh, okay.  I feel like it's fine, because maybe we're a 4 and we just need to get to a 6 for now".  It's just easier, because I think we have done a good job of practising that, "Let's make progress versus priorities" and you've helped me to learn to let go of, when we disagree, it's okay, it's not a disaster; whereas early days, I was like, "Oh my God, is this the end?"!

Helen Tupper: Not yet!

Sarah Ellis: Not yet!

Helen Tupper: No, but I also now see that almost everything that we have done, where there has been some level of difference/disagreement in the way that we would disagree, everything has been better because of it, whether that's writing a book or the design of a session, or anything; everything's been better because of it.  So, I think I have that confident in that we have the conversation and then the outcome will be better. So, let's just summarise what we've talked through, because there's quite a few things that we've touched on.  So, the first thing that we talked about was identifying what makes you different, and then maybe visualising that by drawing your shape, and that could be a collection of shapes, like we had. The second thing was about understanding the people that you work with and their points of difference too, so maybe draw their shapes as well.  But for them, really focus on what's brilliant about what makes them different, what's the positive impact that they can bring?  And then, really focus on how you get the best out of them.  So, we talked about those two top tips.

Then, I guess that final insight that we got to, through the course of the conversation, was really take those potential pressure points that you might be able to see, in advance of them being part of your work, and think about how could you use that point in time as a bit of a challenge for you to do things differently to make sure that everyone is showing up as their best, and you're helping bring that out in different people.

Sarah Ellis: And do you know the other thing that I think has really helped us, just as we've described today and had this conversation, is being able to talk about it openly.  So, rather than feeling like that difference is unsaid, I think if you can have conversations with your colleagues to almost talk about, well, you don't have to use the Consensus-seeking Circle, because that could be a bit weird if people have not listened to the podcast, but you know almost sometimes acknowledging and saying some of these things out loud.

I will often say to people, "I always really like it when people get on and I find disagreement a bit more difficult", I think signalling that to other people, and encouraging that openness then also makes it easier, because you can, in those pressure points, recognise that you can probably have more open conversations.  You can almost work through and make the most of the difference together, because this is not just one person's job, it's not like one person does all the work here.  This is something you ideally want to do as a duo, or as a small group, depending on how you're thinking about this. I was thinking, the other thing that I think has made a real difference for us is actually, because we know each other so well, and it links again to high-trust teams, because you're in an environment of safety and security, you can also have these kinds of conversations.  I think where you can't that makes this particularly hard to do. So, probably another one to think about if you're thinking about this for your team, or connecting dots with other topics, would be to think about, "Have I got a high-trust team, or have we got a high-trust relationship?" as a starting to point to then have these kinds of conversations.

Helen Tupper: And we'll put the link to the podcast episode we did on high-trust teams, and also the summary of these shapes and how they show up and all those things; we'll put it all in the PodSheet so hopefully, if this is something that you want to take action with after listening today, you've got all that information there ready for you to go with it.

Sarah Ellis: So, that's everything for this week.  We hope that will help you to make the most of difference across all of your different relationships.  Do let us know your feedback, what's worked, what hasn't worked, and any other topics you'd like us to cover.  We're always really open to hear from you and we'd love to get your ratings, reviews, subscribing.  If you have five minutes to do that, we always really appreciate it. But that's everything for this week.  Thank you so much for listening, and we'll be back with you again soon.  Bye for now.

Helen Tupper: Bye everyone.