Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction

00:01:45: Conversations post-pandemic

00:03:49: Idea for action 1: shift and support questions

00:05:13: Idea for action 2: go-to curious questions

00:06:18: Go-to guru

00:06:31: Relevant podcast episode

00:06:36: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Sarah Ellis: Hi, I'm Sarah.

Helen Tupper: And I'm Helen.

Sarah Ellis: And you're listening to the Squiggly Careers Podcast.  This episode is part of our Skills Sprint series.  We've recorded 20 episodes, each less than seven minutes long, that we hope are going to help you to build some career development momentum. 

In every episode, we talk about a Squiggly Skill, what it is and why it matters, share an idea for action each, and give you a go-to guru and a podcast episode so you can learn more.  And we want you to turn your Skills Sprint into a learning streak.  And so for everyone who completes a 20-day learning streak, we'll be offering you a free Five Skills to Succeed in a Squiggly Career virtual workshop in September.  If you post about your progress on social and tag us @amazingif, and we'll be in touch to tell you more.

Helen Tupper: The skill for this sprint is all about conversations at work and you might be thinking, "Well, I talk to people all the time, why do I need to focus on a skill?"  But what we find is that a lot of the conversations that we're having at work have become quite transactional, very much about getting the work done.  Whereas actually, when we develop conversations as a skill, we are going beyond the day job, we're understanding different people's perspectives, we're getting insights into their experience and their emotions maybe, and that means that we are learning more about the individual, about the work that they're doing, and we're also much more likely to pull possibilities towards each other, because when we have better conversations at work, we create better connections at work, and that's what makes a really big difference for our development.

We definitely see that people's circles of conversations have got smaller as a result of the pandemic, and that transactional element has definitely become more of an issue for people in the way that we're working now.  So, the more we can develop this skill, the more we can counteract that and the more it supports our career development.  So, Sarah, from your perspective, do you think it's any different post-pandemic, the kind of the quality of the conversations you're having with people?

Sarah Ellis: I think I had to re-find a way of having conversations beyond the day job.  I think my conversations got much more transactional as I started working more virtually.  And I did miss the in-between, very informal conversations you did have in an office.  I love working in a hybrid way and I really like working flexibly, but you don't have any of those chats when you are just making a cup of tea. 

Also, I'm probably most comfortable and confident having career conversations or curious conversations one-to-one, in person, over a coffee.  That's me when I feel very happy having those conversations.  And I've realised that actually with the way that I'm working now, that just feels less possible from a diary perspective, from scheduling and fitting those in. But I've really challenged myself to now think, "Well, is that true?  Yes, my days are busy, but actually how do I carve out space to still be able to meet some people in a room with a coffee, but also being able to do that over a Zoom and that still feeling okay".  So, the thing that I'm finding actually is working quite well for me is doing walk and talks.  I did one last week; I was catching up with somebody much more informally and I said to her, "I might go and do a walk and talk, if that's okay", so that she knew I'd be out walking, and I think it does change the dynamic of that conversation.  Also, it prompted her to say, "Oh, I think I'll do the same".  

And so, though we were in different locations and different actually time zones, it just meant that we could have more of that sort of meandering chat, it didn't feel like you were following an agenda or looking at notes the whole time. So I think for me, I lost a lot of the quality of conversations and I'm rediscovering it, but challenging myself that it doesn't always have to be in person over a coffee and in that kind of one-to-one way.  What about you?

Helen Tupper: I think that I'm at risk of dividing people into conversation people and getting-work-done people.  There are certain people I'm very curious and have lots of really open conversations with, there's some people that I kind of get a bit more task oriented, and I think it's making sure that that skill is shared equally across people; that's the bit that I think I have to work on.

Sarah Ellis: So, my idea for action here is something that I was taught by Celeste Headlee, who we'll mention again shortly, and it's the difference between shift and support questions when you're in a conversation.  So, a shift question is essentially conversation tennis.  So Helen says, "I feel really overwhelmed at the moment".  And I say, "Well, I feel really overwhelmed at the moment too".  And it's not that you are not listening or not being empathetic, but essentially you're just going back and forth. 

And then we both talk about how overwhelmed we are and how challenging it is.  Yeah, you just sort of go, my world, your world, my world, your world. What you're not doing in that conversation is diving deeper into the other person's world.  And also you're making some assumptions about what they're experiencing is the same as what you're experiencing, so you're not testing those assumptions.  You're not getting to know more about that person, you're just sharing more about you. Whereas a support question or a support response in a conversation sounds a bit like, "Oh, that sounds really difficult".  So of course, we still have empathy, "Oh, how long have you been feeling like that?", or, "How is that affecting your days at the moment?" and you just dive deeper into someone else's world. 

Now, it doesn't mean that sometimes we don't do conversation tennis because who doesn't do that some of the time; but just knowing that technique made me realise that too often, I make conversations about me and my world, and now I really consciously try to make sure that I'm asking questions to understand more about someone else's world, and that's when you learn more about things that you don't know, because you know about yourself but you don't know about someone else.

Helen Tupper: And my idea for action is about having some go-to curious questions and making sure you put these in early in a conversation.  The obvious one that I would say that we might need to replace here is when you're meeting someone for the first time, it's really easy to say, "So, what do you do?"  And that might come across as a curious conversation, but what it results often is in people leading with their job title, so you don't often get a very insightful answer. 

You just get, "What job do you do?" If you can swap that to something else, so that could be, "So, tell me a bit more about you", and I did a post on this recently on LinkedIn and loads of people shared their ideas about alternative questions that we can ask people, "So, what's your story?" or even, "How are you today?" anything but what do you do?  And having one of those go-to questions that feels authentic to you can often unlock a conversation so that you can learn a lot more.  And so have a think about what is your go-to curious question.

Sarah Ellis: I think I'd be quite intimidated if someone said, "Tell me about you", I'd be like, "Oh, what do you want to know?"

Helen Tupper: I knew you wouldn't like that one but I think tone is very important, it's not aggression that we're aiming for!

Sarah Ellis: No, but there were some nice ones that people were sharing like, "What's given you the most energy today?" or, "What have you enjoyed the most?"  I was like, everyone could have a go at answering that.  So our go-to guru, we've already given her a shoutout, is Celeste Headlee, brilliant TED Talk, 10 Ways to Have Better Conversations.  She's so funny and practical and insightful, and she's been on our podcast too, if you want to have a listen to that.  Or you could listen to episode 109, which is all about How to Have a Career Conversation.

Helen Tupper: Thank you for listening to the Skills Sprint, we hope you found it useful.  We would love for you to subscribe, so you don't miss any of the Sprint episodes in this series, and also to let us know how you are getting on, tagging us in your posts.  But that is all for this episode.  So, bye for now.

Sarah Ellis: Bye everyone.