Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction

00:02:13: Confronting your calendar

00:05:46: Question about looking ahead

00:13:26: Areas to gain insight from your diary …

00:13:59: … 1: priorities

00:19:36: … 2: people

00:33:06: … 3: work-life fit

00:44:35: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Helen Tupper: Hi, I'm Helen.

Sarah Ellis: And I'm Sarah.

Helen Tupper: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast, a weekly show where we talk about the ins, outs, ups and downs of work and try to give you a little bit of support, hopefully some ideas for action, and also to let you know that you're not going through it alone.  There are lots of lovely listeners that are probably dealing with some of the same problems and opportunities that you are, and we just want to make it that little bit easier for you to take action with whatever it is that you're experiencing.  And along with our episodes, we also have lots of extra support for you.  So, we have PodSheets, which are a one-page summary of the episode that you can download so you can reflect on it later, hopefully that will help you take action; and we also have PodPlus, which is a weekly conversation, completely free, it is every Thursday at 9.00am on Zoom, and we just dive in a bit deeper into the podcast topic of the week, and Sarah will tell you what this week's is all about in a moment.  But you can come along to that, you can connect with a community of like-minded learners, and you can also contribute your perspective on what we're talking about as well.  So, if you want any of the details on that stuff, it is in the show notes, or you can just go to our website, amazingif.com, and you will find it all there.

Sarah Ellis: And so, this week's topic is quite a spikey, punchy title, being honest, because we looked at it and we think it's a really good title, but it's not maybe quite as encouraging and as supportive as some of our other titles, which is usually, you know, "How to Make Your Strengths Stand Out and Show Up".  This weeks' episode is called, "Why Your Diary Doesn't Lie".  So, you can tell, when we came up with this title, we were at the edge of a very busy couple of months, so we were getting to the end of that, and so I think we were partly in re-energise mode.  And I think Helen had heard someone talk about how confronting your calendar can be.  And I think we both just thought, "Yes, that's right.  This would be a really good podcast, and very quickly could come up with some ideas".  So, yeah, we know that any question that starts with a "why" always triggers, I think, slightly more of a flight-or-fight response, because as soon as you say, "Why?" it does make you question a bit more deeply.  So, we do know that this is of a slightly different tone to start today, but we also think it will be quite fun.  I think we were also feeling quite playful at the time.

Helen Tupper: So, let's talk a bit about why your calendar can be a bit confronting.  So effectively, it reflects your reality.  So, no matter how we're feeling about our work or what we might be saying to other people about how we're feeling or what we're doing, the reality is in your diary.  The details of what you're doing and where you're spending time and who you're doing it with, all of the actual insight into that is already in your calendar.  And when we get frustrated that things aren't moving forward or we're not making progress or certain people are dominating our days, the truth is in the minutes you are spending that are documented in your diary.  And so actually, if we take a bit of time to look at our diary differently, so rather than just seeing it as something that we have to do today, and actually thinking about what does this actually say about how I'm working and who I'm working with and where I was spending my time, then actually I think you learn in a slightly different way; and whenever you learn in a different way, you're probably going to take a different action because of it. So, this taking action is the thing that we really want to encourage as a result of looking into your diary.  We're trying to help you, with some of the insights that we're going into, be a bit more proactive about how you're spending your time and to use that insight to make slightly more informed decisions rather than maybe operating on autopilot, because we're just doing what our diary says without thinking a little bit more intentionally about it.

Sarah Ellis: I think what's really interesting as well, as Helen and I have been preparing for this, is we both manage our time and our diaries in naturally very different ways, and yet both of us came to quite a lot of conclusions as we were going through this about actions that we would want to take, like things that we would want to change as a result of doing this.  I think actually when we first started, I was thinking, I was quite smug, I was like, "I'm quite good at this and I'm controlling" essentially, so I have a high level of control over my calendar and my diary doesn't lie.  But I was thinking, "Well, that's fine, that's going to be a good thing.

Helen Tupper: "Because I know it's going to tell me a good story".

Sarah Ellis: It's going to tell me a really good story.  And then we started working through some of these questions and prompts and the framing that we're going to go through today around how to actually look at your diary and your time, and I had quite a few new realisations that I've not had before.  And so I think regardless of where you're starting from, you might be thinking, maybe you're like me, and you're like, "Well, I feel very in control, still useful"; maybe you feel like other people are in control of your calendar and your diary, which I think can feel really hard; you might feel quite stuck, or maybe you feel a bit helpless about it; or perhaps you're more like Helen and you're just very today-focused like, "What do I need to get done today?" and perhaps look ahead slightly less, which again can sometimes end up feeling like your time is happening to you rather than you're making some some active choices.  So, I think there is a lot to be learned from your diary doesn't lie.

Helen Tupper: And for me, this episode is a real example of looking back in order to move forward, just taking a little bit of time to look back at your diary and learning from it to use that insight to move forward in a way that feels a bit better for you.  And the insights you get from looking back and what better for you looks like is a very individual thing.  So, we're just going to share some tools, some techniques, some insights from us using these to hopefully help you.  We'd love to know what you learn.  So, if you do these ideas today and you get to some interesting aha moments, let us know either in PodPlus or email us, helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com.

Sarah Ellis: So, we're going to start with a more general question, a zoomed-out question, before we get into a couple of specific areas where we think your diary really helps you to understand how you spend your days.  And that question is, "Just looking at your diary for the next week, what are three things that you notice?"  So, just a really easy getting-started question, look ahead, what do you notice; what stands out to you?  So, we both did this and got very different answers, which is also interesting given we do very similar jobs.  Potentially, we're replaceable of each other, we're one and the same, but we definitely didn't get to the same insight.  So, what three things did you notice, Helen?

Helen Tupper: So, one of the things that I noticed when I was scanning through stuff was space in my diary.  So, I often feel like I have no space.  I'm like, I have to be like, "I've got no time to do all the things that I need to do".  And I looked at my diary and I was like, "Oh no, you do, you do.  There is some space in your diary".  And it just made me think, "So, what are you actually using that for?"  Maybe time is not the problem; maybe it's how you're using some of that space that is the issue.  So, you're basically wasting the space that is in my diary with my like, "Oh, what am I wasting it on?" which is kind of where my brain went to.

Sarah Ellis: A very Helen insight.

Helen Tupper: Is it?

Sarah Ellis: I'd be like, "I've got space, I'm just going to enjoy it, and it's going to be really nice", and you were like, "How do I use the space?"

Helen Tupper: "Wasting space is a waste of my life!"  Learning time is limited was one I got to.  I was looking at my diary and I was like, "Oh, I did an hour of learning on Tuesday because I went to an event", and then I was like, "Maybe I should be doing a bit more".  So, I kind of looked at it through a frame of doing my job versus learning how to do my job better.  And I was like, maybe I haven't got that balance quite right, which I thought was quite interesting. 

And then I was just looking through my weeks and I was also just scanning through the amount of recurring meetings that were in my diary.  I'm never a massive fan of recurring meetings because I think we accept them at a point of time and then we rarely stop them.  They're just this thing and just eats into your diary.  So, the more recurring meetings you accept, I think the less choice you have over your time.  And so I was like, "Do I feel okay about the balance and the ones that I have accepted; and are there any things that I accepted that I might want to go back on and to challenge the frequency of those meetings, or challenge whether actually the right people are in those meetings?"  So, yeah, it gave me that little insight.  What about you?  What did you get to?

Sarah Ellis: Well, the first thing I noticed was that I'd got no time factored in for things outside of work that I do during or around work that are important to me, and they definitely used to be there but they've gone.  I'm not sure where they've gone or how they've gone.

Helen Tupper: I deleted them!

Sarah Ellis: Helen was like, "There's too much space, Sarah has too much space"!  She probably could do that, she probably does have the power to do that, to be fair, and I just wouldn't know how so I just leave her to it.  And this is probably a little bit of a pandemic thing because you did think, "Well, when am I going to go for my one walk of the day; or, when am I going to have that outside time?"  I definitely had a period of going, "Well, I'm going to put 'going for a walk' in my diary to make sure that during the day, that's my equivalent of a lunch break essentially".  Like, nip downstairs, I'd get something to eat, and I would go for a walk and it definitely re-energises me.  I know I'm better at my job when that happens.

 And also, some of the exercise that I do, I used to always have that in my diary and it felt very protected and it happened very -- again, it's good, you sort of thank your future self because you got it sorted, and I think it makes you more motivated to go and do it because you see it and you think, "Oh, yes, I should be doing that", and that's just gone.  And so, it just made me think, "Oh, okay, I'm going to go back through my diary for the next three months and just start to put those things back in again; I can do that.

Helen Tupper: It reminds me of that phrase, I think I've got it right, "What doesn't get measured doesn't get managed".

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.

Helen Tupper: I feel like what doesn't get diarised doesn't get done.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.

Helen Tupper: I feel like that's a thing, so it just gets filled by other things that are important probably to other people.

Sarah Ellis: My second insight, which made Helen and I laugh, and we've actually since sorted it because we were going through this exercise to make sure it all made sense, my first day back from a holiday, which I've got next week, I've got an 8.00am start to record a podcast. 

Now, for anyone who's been listening for a while, you would know that that 8am podcast would be very low quality, due to the fact that I am more of a night owl than an early bird.  And the idea of coming back and doing a podcast at 8.00am on your first day back at work, also being really realistic about, well okay, working back from that, that means that we need to know the topic that we're going to talk about, we need to have done the prep beforehand.  We do actually put quite a lot of time into the podcast!

Helen Tupper: I was quite embarrassed, some people are like, "Do you really?"

Sarah Ellis: "Do you, though?"  Actually we do, we actually do!  And so actually, there was two things about that for me.  One was, it was an activity that is important that I go, "But I'm not setting myself up for success", kind of when it was happening; and then secondly, I was like, "And also, we haven't worked back from that.  There's no way that's going to get done in the way that it needs to happen".  So, that was like a red flag.  Now, we have actually sorted it, but it made me question how it happened in the first place.  And you just think, "Well, that would never have been a sensible thing to do". Then the third thing, which is a positive thing, is we have Freedom Fridays.  So, we spend a lot of our time working with groups on their career development or leadership development, talking to people and hopefully trying to be useful about their careers. 

And then on Friday, we have experimented with in the past, and I don't think it's been a hard and fast rule, with this idea of Freedom Fridays, where really sometimes we'll spend that for learning, sometimes it's to make time for those conversations that you want to have that maybe you struggle to fit in during the week, maybe it's to read.  Often, my Freedom Fridays are me by myself, being honest, not necessarily with other people. But whenever I look ahead to a week and I see that there is a Freedom Friday and that's been protected, my motivation for the week I think increases by like 40%, because I feel like I can give so much more during the rest of the week because I feel like Freedom Friday gives back to me. 

I actually find it very energising as well as re-energising, but I'm also very energised by knowing, "Okay, well I might be quite full-on or be with lots of people during the week", but I think it's probably a little bit the introvert in me, seeing a Freedom Friday I almost relax and it's like a breath of relief.  I'm like, "Oh, I feel relieved because I know that's coming and I know I can just give it my all but then I'm not going to collapse into the weekend", which I never think is a great feeling. Helen Tupper: Sometimes I have that, well it would probably be a different insight if I'm not feeling like it at the moment, but sometimes I have that about a day at home.  You know if we've had lots and lots of days when we're out and about, I have the same, because at home I'm just like, "Oh, it just feels like that place that even if we've got loads of meetings, it's a very different feeling, I think, being out and about, a bit more office space versus having that at home.

Sarah Ellis: And I do think that would be a really easy activity to do as a team.  So, if it feels like something you could talk about as a team, and you perhaps wouldn't want to do three, you could just do one thing.  So, look at your diary for next week, what's one thing that you notice?  And someone might say, "Well actually, I'm in all back-to-back meetings", or, "I've got no space", or, "Actually, I'm feeling really positive because I've protected some time to do XYZ and that's really important to me".  So, I think you also learn about other people when you hear people talk about how they're spending their time, and I think that's quite a quite an easy exercise to get started with.

Helen Tupper: So, what we've got now is three areas that we think you can get quite a lot of insight from in your diary, and that is priorities, people and work-life fit.  And we are going to talk about some of the questions that you can ask yourself when you're looking at those three areas in your diary, so some data that you can collect; and then we're going to share some of our insights when we ask ourselves those questions; and then we've got an action for you to take as well.  So, we'll do each of those in turn for you.  And as I mentioned at the start, we'll summarise all this in the PodSheet so that it's really easy for you to take action.

Sarah Ellis: So, priorities is first, so why it matters.  I think we know that in all of our jobs and our Squiggly Careers, it always feels like there are lots of competing priorities.  I often think it's why the urgent/important matrix doesn't work in reality because everyone's like, "Well, everything's urgent and everything's important".  But also, I think we have to hold ourselves to account that it's a bit of a cop-out.  Not everything can be equally important.  Some projects, pieces of work, do matter more than others, and I think the question then becomes, "Does your diary reflect that?"  And for me, this was very revealing. So, I was very clear what our top three priorities are, partly because we're going into our new financial year in our company, so that's probably why it's particularly top of mind for me.  But generally, I think I have good clarity around what matters most. 

I come back to it a lot because we have things like Win Watch, Helen and I do that together, where every quarter we actually kind of do this exercise of going, "What matters most?"  I'm always relatively confident that I could name my top priorities.  But then the problem becomes, you look at your last week and look ahead to your next week and see, how do those priorities show up; so, what percentage of time essentially are you spending on each of those priorities?  So, I then did that.  I actually did try to do a month but I found that too difficult, and that might have just been my lack of technical ability, to be honest, but I found that a bit overwhelming trying to do the month zoom out and I found it difficult to spot.  Whereas actually, when I made it shorter and more specific, I found the week much easier. I looked at those three priorities and I realised that one of the priorities, I wasn't actually clear what that meant, what we meant, what I should actually be doing.  So I was like, "Okay, I'm never going to move forward on something if I don't know what I should be doing", so I had that realisation.  One of them isn't there at all.  So, I'm really clear on it, but it wasn't there last week and it's not there next week, so no time.  And one of them is there about 20% of time, but it's actually, back to Helen's point, it's actually the wrong kind of time.  So, this priority does show up, but it's not quite in the way that we know we need to kind of make progress on that project, so again, setting ourselves up to fail a little bit with that.  So, less of a disaster than the other ones, but honestly, if I was red-amber-greening, the connection between three things that we have said are essentially our most important priorities, and then my diary, all three of them would have been red, well, are red, because they would have been, like I'm making it up, they just are red.  And I was like, "Oh, I need to do something.  I need to do something different".

Helen Tupper: So, some similarity and some difference.  I know what our three priorities are, same as Sarah, and because we share the same priorities because we are very connected in what we do.

Sarah Ellis: We are one!

Helen Tupper: That would make Sarah really uncomfortable if I said, "We are one"; she'll be like, "No, no!"  I agree with a lot of what you say and I do see it reflected in my diary too.  I think that there's one area that Sarah thinks she's unclear on and I'm like, "No, I know what that means".  I think most of my time is committed to one of the things that you think has the least clarity.  Like, when I go through my diary, I'm like, "No, I'd say like 75% of my time is committed to the thing that we are currently maybe not sure exactly what that thing is".  But yeah, for me, the biggest insight was, I do not think that my time is aligned to the priorities that we would say are most important for our business.  And you kind of go, "Oh, well that's an issue.  How on earth are we going to achieve these things if that is not where my time is being spent?" 

And it just makes me think, "Actually, we need to take a little bit of time back and realign our diaries with what we say matters most for our business", has probably been my main insight. But it was really revealing, just the clarity of kind of going, "What are the three things that matter most for our business?" and Sarah and I run a business together, so I would use that framing of our business.  If you don't run your own business, which I assume is most people who are listening to this podcast, it might be like, "What three things are most important for me in my role to achieve?" those sorts of questions.  And then just looking at your diary, it's really insightful to go, (a) can you answer that question about knowing what your priorities are; and then (b) what does your diary look like in reality; how much of those things are matched or not?  For me, not enough matching was my main insight.

Sarah Ellis: So, I think the action and kind of the conclusion that you get to, unless you're obviously green, green, green, looking great, is well then, it prompts you to question, "Well, what am I going to stop?  What trade-offs do I need to make?  What could I delegate?  What could I delay?"  That was really what was then starting to run through my mind.  I was like, "Well, I do believe in these things".  Actually, one of the actions was more a conversation.  So, Helen's saying she's really clear on one thing, and I'm going, "Well, I'm not, so we probably just need to chat about that".  And so you go, "Well, that's good though.  That's a good outcome from that".  And then, one of them actually we have already rethought about our time and that's in progress, I feel quite confident about that one.  And then one of them, I've got lower levels of confidence. But even just knowing that, you know when you go, "Okay, well now what I know what I need to do, and I'm very committed to them doing it", whereas I think without doing this exercise, I would have just almost expected these things to happen, because I'm like, "We're really clear on our priorities, of course it's going to happen, and we talk about them and we've shared them with the team, so that's what we'll do".  But these things don't happen by magic, do they; they don't happen by accident.

Helen Tupper: So, the second area that we think is really useful to reflect on is what your diary can tell you about people, and particularly the people that you're spending time with, is where we're trying to get to here.  So, in Squiggly Careers, what we are trying to do in order to be really resilient in our roles and create opportunities for our future, is balance the relationships we're building that help us to be brilliant at the job we're doing today, alongside creating a community around your career that can take you further in the future.  And so, that might be people in your business, but beyond the job that you do on a day-to-day basis, that could be people who are outside of your organisation, that could be people who help you learn or inspire you.  We've talked before in a previous episode about creating your personal board.  

The difference and diversity of the people that you spend time with makes a really, really big impact on your development.  So, when you look at your diary, you can start to see, is that difference and that diversity playing out in reality; or am I spending time with the same kind of people all of the time and I'm not really getting the opportunity to kind of extend my relationships outside of that? So, the sort of things that your diary can tell you, and again, we'll share our insights from doing this, are what percentage of time are you spending with people who are connected to your day job versus those people who are beyond what you do on a day-to-day basis.  It can also tell you what percentage of your time you're focusing on internal versus external relationships.  And it can also tell you what percentage of your time are you spending with people versus not with people.

Sarah Ellis: I added that one!

Helen Tupper: But I like that too, like time on my own.  I think it's surprising; I'm a real extrovert, but I still need a bit of time on my own to think or sometimes it's selfish, I just want to create stuff that is in my head.  And if I don't have time by myself, then I do not get time to do that because I'm always in conversation with other people and I'm not necessarily having that time to create on my own.  So, these are some things that we would recommend as you look in your diary to just look at those three different areas.  So, Sarah, what insights did you get to when you were doing this?

Sarah Ellis: So, I think I'm very I'm very conscious of this one and I think everybody would expect the percentage of time on your day job with internal people and with people would always be higher.  So, we're not recommending here they should be 50/50, or one should be loads higher than the other, because realistically of course you spend most of time doing your day job.  I have always been very intentional about knowing it's very easy for me to just do that and not go beyond it.  

So, the things that I noticed was about a year ago, I started volunteering again to mentor people.  So, it's something I used to do a lot of probably six, seven years ago, stopped in terms of in an intentional way, and then have re-signed up to a program that matched mentors with mentees.  And it would have been really easy not to do that; I could think of a million reasons not to in terms of other things that we are doing in our company.  But I just thought, you know what, I feel like you meet different people I wouldn't normally meet, I hope I can be useful, but you always get loads of help in return as well.  I always think those are very reciprocal relationships.  So, my percentage of time with people beyond my day job has definitely increased because of doing that mentoring, and there's a catalyst to make that happen.  I'm not hoping someone is going to email and say, "Hey, do you fancy doing a bit of mentoring?"  It's a programme that is run by an organisation. My internal versus external, I would say I spend a lot of time with external people, but I did notice that the majority of that is because of my day job.  So, most of that is like, I'm interviewing someone for the podcast, or I'm doing a workshop for an organisation, I've got a meeting. 

And because our organisation is naturally very external-focused, like we work with lots and lots of companies, I build loads of external relationships, but very much to do with the day job.  So I sort of go, "There's a bit of a disconnect there".  And what percentage of my time is with people versus not with people?  Most of my week is with people, but I do work hard to give myself space because I just know, back to that point about Freedom Fridays, that makes a really big difference for me.  It's also why I need to re-look at things like having the space to go out and have a break or have a walk, because just not being with people can just be 45 minutes during a day.  Then I'm like, "Okay, I'm fine now".  I do work very hard to avoid -- it sounds awful -- back-to-back people. Helen Tupper: I thought you were going to say, "Being with people"!

Sarah Ellis: Well, I mean saying this, one of my best friends did actually send me something, you know those screenshots from Instagram, going, "I like coffee and about three people".  And her message to me was, "Did you write this?"  And I went back and said, "Oh, no, it's more like two!"  But I would say that I think I definitely can't do the whole lots of people all the time.  And so, I think the biggest insight for me was a prompt to think about building relationships beyond my day job that are external.  That was my conclusion, like what does that look like?  I have a few examples but it's there's no catalyst for it.  I don't think I have enough of a focus around doing that and what I would be doing that for, so then for me it just doesn't happen.  What about you?

Helen Tupper: My reflections on this one versus the priorities were much more positive.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, mine were.

Helen Tupper: So, I kind of came away from the priorities and go, "Oh, gosh, this is not good".

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I felt quite bad about myself.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, I was like, "This is not good".  The people one, I felt really like, "Oh, I'm doing all right on this one, particularly with internal versus external".  I was looking at my diary.  I think I like socialising so I've got a few things there that just fit, I kind of put into my week because I get a lot of energy from it.  And also, I'm part of a learning community and part of this EY Winning Women thing.  And there's quite a lot of time that I've got coming up, when I looked ahead I was like, "Oh, you've committed quite a lot of time", so that's given me a bit of an external boost.  And as long as we protect our Friday, I always have that little bit of time on my own which I really I really value.  And I reflected on what's happened with my energy over the last month and I realised it's because that hasn't been there.  I thought that was interesting. 

So, as long as I protect that time, I get that time for me. The bit that I was like, "Oh, actually, maybe a little bit of work to do with your diary", was the day job versus beyond it.  I was like, what does beyond look like and how could you bring a bit more of it in?  A lot of the people are connected to my day job.  They're conversations around what I do today rather than slightly more curious, or supporting people who are in a very different situation to me.  I think there's probably a little bit of a gap for me there, but generally I'd give myself a good score on this one.  I'd definitely be "gramber", green/amber, or even just a green to be honest.  I think I'm all right on this one.

Sarah Ellis: I do think as well, probably because we both do something that we really love, your day job is very fulfilling.  You know, we both like meeting people very connected to our day job, even if they're a little bit adjacent.  If I actually think back to some of the other organisations I've been in, even when I really enjoyed my roles, I think I was just really curious about what else was out there, and it felt really interesting to do that.  So, I think I was perhaps better at some of those curious career conversations when I was in big organisations, because I think it's really easy, isn't it, to get sucked into a big company or just into company life.  Whereas now, I think because we're in a smaller organisation that probably has changed my mindset a bit. But if you are thinking about these, we've just got a few ideas in case you kind of go, "Right, well I can kind of know where I am, but what's the so-what-now?" because we always want to be coupling that awareness with action.  So, if you are thinking, "I want to spend more time beyond the day job", as I described, I find it really helpful to kind of be part of something.

 And Helen described that as well in terms of her learning community that she's part of with Ernst & Young.  So, is there something you could become part of where I almost think they do a bit of hard work for you, which I think we shouldn't apologise for, and they help you to spend time with people beyond your day job, and they probably help you, at the same time, to spend time with some external people so you can do two things at once, which is always efficient? One of the things that Helen does really well, if you do want to do more external things, and I've started to do this as well because this actually works well for me too, so this obviously works well for introverts and extroverts, is we have this phrase of like "extend an invite".  So, if you're going to go to an event or if you're going to go and listen to someone or you're going to do some learning, is there someone you could extend an invite to so you're learning together or just having an experience together?  Didn't you go to a gallery with someone this week, Helen?

Helen Tupper: I've done two things this week.  So, I went to a gallery with somebody who I've kind of known for a while, we just connect every year.

Sarah Ellis: Which I thought was really nice.

Helen Tupper: So that's like, now, that's sort of a mutually extended invite.  We always kind of plan to do that, but it was quite nice.  And then, I also did another one where you actually bought me the tickets because I think it was to see --

Sarah Ellis: I think you were away and they sell out really quickly, and you were like, "Can you buy me these tickets?"  I was like, "Sure".  I'll sort your diary for you!

Helen Tupper: So, Sarah bought me tickets to see Liz Gilbert at the Barbican.  Also, you bought gold tickets, brilliant!  I was like, "Oh, gold!"

Sarah Ellis: Did I?

Helen Tupper: Yeah, it was so funny.

Sarah Ellis: That's doesn't sound like me.

Helen Tupper: I know, that's what I thought!  I was like, "She got me the good ones".  And it was really funny on the ticket, because I was reading last night, I was trying to find out where in the Barbican were these tickets, it said, "Gold tickets, second best".  I was like, "Oh!"

Sarah Ellis: I mean the first question is always, "What is first?"

Helen Tupper: "What's first?"

Sarah Ellis: So, what is first best?

Helen Tupper: That was the VIP ticket, Sarah, which we clearly didn't buy, or maybe they weren't on sale.  That was the front four or five rows.

Sarah Ellis: Oh, so you weren't in the front four or five rows.  But you were in row six.

Helen Tupper: No, G and beyond, I was allowed to sit in on the second best.

Sarah Ellis: Oh, okay, G and beyond!

Helen Tupper: But anyway, the point of Sarah buying those tickets is she bought me two tickets at my request, but I actually kept the second ticket for quite a long time to think, "Oh, who can I extend this invite to?"  And I did extend the invite with somebody that I don't know very well, but had kind of met through our work.  And I was like, "Oh, actually, this could be a really interesting thing that we both like to do".  And it was, it was brilliant, I had the best time.  But that invite gave me the opportunity to connect with someone that I probably wouldn't have had that conversation with if it wasn't for that.  So, thanks for buying the tickets.

Sarah Ellis: Oh, you're welcome.  It just sounds surprising that I did that!  I was obviously in a good mood that day.  And then the last one is, if you find it hard to protect time for yourself, I know a few people who do this where they put in a meeting where it's basically a meeting for me.  So, this is really going, maybe you call it something, we actually call them Freedom Fridays, but we obviously have the luxury, I think, of being able to do that and be kind of quite playful.  I'm not sure I could have just done that at Sainsbury's!

Helen Tupper: Yeah, "I'm taking some freedom from my retail role!"

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, "I'm just going to ignore you all!"  But I do think I have always, and I hope this is not just us, but I think we were trying to challenge ourselves to go, right, back in the days of other people putting a lot of meetings in your diaries or being part of lots of projects when you're in big companies, I think I would have always had enough freedom to be able to have an equivalent of a meeting for me at some point every day, where you're just going, "This is just some time where I'm going to go and connect with someone and have a coffee", maybe you're just by yourself, you're just having a think, you're just having some of that space that Helen described; and also, knowing what does that look like for you and when will that work best for you, because there are always some things in your diary that I think are unchangeable and you have very low levels of control over. Certainly if I think back to what my week used to look like at places like Sainsbury's and Barclays, you kind of go, "Well, there's those immovable moments, so no point getting frustrated about those because I have to turn up to those, but there are those things where maybe they're more optional or maybe I could experiment with changing those, or", to Helen's point, "does that need to be a recurring meeting or could that be a once a month meeting?"  Those kind of things, it's kind of looking for those moments in your week where you have high levels of control and that's where maybe you can take a bit of time back for yourself.

Helen Tupper: And just on the recurring thing, I've tried before, you know, you go, "Oh, 11.00 to 12.00, I'll just do a recurring meeting for reflection or something".  I actually find when it's recurring, I tend to get a bit lazy with it and go, "Oh, I'll just use that time to do some email".

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I'm the same.

Helen Tupper: What I find much more useful is, I go in my diary and I go, "Right, I'm going to hold that time".  And I mean, I will write, "Do not book", is what I will write, but that might not be the right language for you in your organisation.  You could just call it "keep-free time", or I mean I know some people make up a meeting name, or whatever.  Call it whatever works, but my personal insight on this is the action of going through my diary and being very intentional of, "Okay, on Wednesday, it's going to be 10.00 till 11.00, or on Friday it's going to be 10.00 till 12.00.  I'm going to block that out as a meeting for me".  I find that more effective than just having the recurring daily slot that just tends to get filled by stuff.  The intentionality of holding the time makes me, I don't know, just maybe a bit more aware of it and a bit more protective over it maybe.

Sarah Ellis: And the final area that we thought your diary is very revealing about is your work-life fit, and we know this matters to everyone and to all of us, and at the same time, boundaries can very easily get blurred and be quite tricky.  And if you can, think about your diary as a vehicle maybe or as an opportunity to actually support your work-life fit; that might be quite a good starting point.  And whether that is prioritising and protecting some things, some habits that you really want to have for yourself, could be as simple as, "I do want to take a lunch break"; it could be things like active rest.  So, we know that active rest, which is when your brain is fully absorbed and focused in something that isn't work, it takes all of your presence and attention, we know that's really good for you.  And we also know that the best way really to build your resilience reserves every day is to do something that is just for you.  And again, I think those things don't just appear.  These are very much choices where you have to then think about, "Well, how am I going to make that work for me?" I think sometimes my problem with this actually is being overly ambitious, almost being unrealistic.  It's like, well, in my head, I think because I do like the idea of space and a tiny bit controlling, I'm like, "Well, it's fine. 

I should always be able to make all of my boundaries work".  And I think I do have a sort of, "Well, I've got no excuse.  This should all be perfect all of the time".  And then you realise, of course, that's no one's reality.  And so, this is where I think you've got to be really clear about, again, back to that kind of priorities like, what are those boundaries and how often are those boundaries getting broken?  I think that was the reveal for me where you talk about your diary doesn't lie.  Again, I could tell you my boundaries, like Helen and I will talk about ours in a second, because we could both very quickly reel off, "These are our boundaries", and then we were both like, "Yeah, so how often do those boundaries get broken?"  And then it's going to connect the dots, "Why do they?" and then, "What are you going to do differently?"  So, Helen, do you want to give a few examples of some of your boundaries?

Helen Tupper: Yeah, so my boundaries are mainly connected to my children and my social life, it turns out.  So, the children ones are, I like to be back for bedtime, which means that I need to be home for 6.30, so that I can do some reading and stuff and spend time with my youngest, because she goes to bed at 7.00.  So, I need to be back for 6.30 so I've got at least half an hour with her, which I know doesn't sound a lot, but that is that is the reality.  Sometimes it's earlier than that, but that needs to be 6.30 at the latest so I get a bit of time with her; that's one of my boundaries.  A second is, I am, to the point of social life, that can sometimes come into conflict with my family life, and so I have some boundaries around, "I want to be in more nights than I'm out".  So, I'm fine with being out two nights a week, but any time it tips over to three I'm like, that has to be a very good reason in my mind that I've let it tip into three. 

And I also don't like to have nights out consecutively.  And this is all connected to my children in that I'm like, well again, it has to be a really good reason if it's two nights in a row, because that means that I miss quite a lot of time with them that I think is important. So, most of my boundaries are kind of just managing the fact that I -- it is a bit of a challenge sometimes, the conflicts that that creates.  When I was looking at my diaries, knowing that those are my boundaries, it was really funny.  So, I started looking forward and when I looked forward I was like, "Oh, that looks all pretty good, it all looks great, I must be doing really well on this".  But then I looked back and what I realised was, I could see more conflicts when I was looking back than when I was looking forward.

Sarah Ellis: Interesting. Helen Tupper: Yeah, it made me think that I think in a week, I compromise myself.

Sarah Ellis: Right, that was in the moment, your boundaries get blurred in the moment. Helen Tupper: Yes.  Because you'll come to me and you'll be like, "I've got this thing, do you want to do it?"  And I'll be like, "Oh, yeah, sounds great".  And then it's in the week, I overcommit to something.  Long term, I look in the diary and I space it out quite nicely.  I'm like, "I won't go to that, I'm going to do that".  But yeah, that was my main reflection was like actually, you need to check before you commit, because my excitement to do things because I want to do everything when I'm offered an opportunity, I want to say yes, and that is what creates the conflict. 

And I was like, "Oh, interesting insight.  My other insight was just helping other people to protect my boundaries, because on that point, maybe just having someone else to kind of hold it up and go, "Oh, but Helen, you said…", because I might compromise myself a bit too much without really thinking about it, would be useful.  So, I found I was like, it doesn't look like I'm in a bad place, but I can see where the problems creep in, which I thought was useful.

Sarah Ellis: Well, I think for you, because you are so energised by people and opportunity, it might just be having something in your head where you go, "Don't default to saying yes", because I think you do definitely default to yes, as in yes to being helpful, yes to trying to make stuff work.  But it's almost like you need to count to ten, just actually count to ten before you get really excited!

Helen Tupper: Just count to ten!

Sarah Ellis: Count to ten!  It's like a kid, isn't it?  Count to ten, and then you could work out how much socialising you want to do in a week, or whatever.  And actually, we find it, don't we?  I was thinking about actually the boundaries.  So, Helen's second kid and my only one are the same age but go to bed at very different times, for better, for worse.  We have zero parenting judgment because -- this is not that podcast for lots of very, very good reasons!  But my little boy goes to bed quite a lot later than Helen's little girl.  And sometimes, we are trying to sort stuff in an evening and our boundaries clash.  Because Helen will be like, "Right, well I'm getting home at 6.30", to try and spend some time with her little girl.  And then it's like, "Well, that's when I'm free".  And then I'll go, "Okay, well now I'm not free".  And then, by the time we've both done both of that, then we're both tired.

Helen Tupper: "Do you want to do a podcast at 10.30?"

Sarah Ellis: And I'm like, "Well, that's not going to work!"  And so actually, what's interesting, that can sometimes feel hard, right?  I think that's often why boundaries get broken, because you are also trying to be helpful to other people, and also you've got to get stuff done, and sometimes it can feel hard to find another way.  But I always know when you and I are struggling, because when we have to do those things, and sometimes we do have to, those boundaries do get broken, you can tell that neither of us is very happy about it.  I don't like breaking your boundaries, you don't like breaking mine, but sometimes I feel like we like run out of road almost, like you're literally like run out.  But I think often, like you said, that's because that's never -- usually it will have worked in the first place, but something along the way has happened that then meant that that boundary gets broken.

Helen Tupper: Just on that point, just before you kind of share your kind of boundaries and reflections, I think one thing for me that's really important when you're coming up against maybe boundary conflicts is just not to judge them.  Everyone's boundaries are right for them.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, so different.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, and if I was like, "Oh, well that's ridiculous, Sarah", or you could judge me for my socialising stuff and be like, "Oh, that's just not important, Helen".

Sarah Ellis: I don't judge you, I just don't want to come!

Helen Tupper: No, I know!

Sarah Ellis: As long as you don't involve me, it's all absolutely fine!

Helen Tupper: And I love you for that.  But I think that that lack of judgment is really, really important because what you're trying to do is work with people, like find a way round and a way through the fact that we might have different boundaries rather than judge the importance that someone places on their boundaries, because that does not help collective boundary setting at all.  That's just a recipe for disaster.  And I think we've got to that point.  We don't have that judgment, I think we recognise each other's boundaries and we respect them, and then we try to find ways to work with them.

Sarah Ellis: That's really true, actually, because ours are very different.  I do think we make quite different choices in our days.  I mean, you actually live quite near a forest, I would say very near a forest, and you never seem to walk in it.

Helen Tupper: I walk in the weekend, I don't walk in the week.

Sarah Ellis: At the weekends, but not in the week, you don't.  And I don't live near a forest, but I'll be like, "Oh, Helen --", you might be like, "Oh, can we talk about this?"  And I'm like, "Well, we can, but I'm three quarters of the way into a walk", or, "I'm not in the house, I'm not even at home, I've gone for a walk".  And it'll be like, I don't know, 2.00pm or whatever.  And I can't contemplate you ever doing that, but I also never feel like you're going, "Why is she not on her laptop?  Why is she not typing some words?"

Helen Tupper: No, never.  Well, I think if you just randomly said it to me, "I'm going for a walk", I'd be like, "Oh, can you do it later?"  But because I know that that is your boundary, I would never say that to you.

Sarah Ellis: "Can you walk home faster, please?"

Helen Tupper: Yeah, never.  So, I think that is, like, you've got to know what people's boundaries are, you've got to respect them.  I think that's a really important team angle on this.

Sarah Ellis: So, funnily enough, I was really thinking about this and I think one of my boundaries is, I don't like having anything in my diary post 5.00pm.  So, I actually work quite a lot in the evening because I'm a night person, and I actually have a real burst of energy early evening, and it's also when I go to things like, if I'm going to do any exercise, that's the time that I do it.  So, I see anything past 5.00pm, I'm like, no one is allowed to go near that time, everything has to be very much me choosing, what do I want to work on?  "Oh, I want to go to Pilates, I might go for another walk", I do sometimes go for two or three walks a day.

  Some of them are really short; I just sound like I always go walking, this little solo person just meandering around!  But again, if I've had a really busy day, I do actually do that. But I really then find it very difficult if someone is taking up that evening time.  And actually that has happened.  So, I've noticed other people have been putting time in for me to do work for them that they need me to do, which is fine, but it's always post 5.00pm.  And I don't know why that's happened.  But I then reflected on that and thought, "But I have never said that to anybody out loud until today".  In my head, it's very clear, but equally we have fully transparent diaries, and our team, and we have the brilliant Sarah who helps Helen and I kind of manage our diaries. 

And so, at no point have I signalled to other people that that's -- because that's quite a nuanced thing that I've just described.  And so, if I need people to respect that boundary, I think you've got to name it and share it with the people that matter, people you work really closely with, or if anyone else does have the ability to control your day and your diary, they need to know because otherwise people can't help you.  I think, to Helen's point, those people can be really helpful accountability partners. So actually, when Helen and I were going through our boundaries and I'd got some of the ones like, how my Monday works really matters to me because I think starting my week well matters, so I always want to have time for exercise on a Monday; I want to be around for bedtimes as well, same as Helen, which is a lot later, that bedtime; and avoiding back-to-back meetings.  And then we both said, "Oh, interesting, I think we have written this down or versions of this down a few times, but never in a place that we keep coming back to or refer to, and usually from a point of frustration where we've gone, "Oh, let's write these down again."  And so again, I think if you're going to do this really well, you've got to make it really clear and you've got to share it.

Helen Tupper: So, we hope you are now on board with this kind of strange title of why your diary doesn't lie and you've got lots of actions that you can experiment with.  Just kind of in summary, and again we'll put these in the PodSheet for you, the first thing that we're recommending you do is just look at your diary and see what three things you notice, and then there are those three sections, so priorities, people and then work-life fit, and just giving those a bit of an extra look into, because then you'll be able to get some more insights and that will hopefully take you some more effective action so you can make sure that your time is well spent at work.

Sarah Ellis: So, that's everything for this week, thank you so much for listening and we'll be back with you again soon.  Bye for now.

Helen Tupper: Thanks everybody.