Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction
00:01:56: Taking your energy seriously
00:03:59: Corporate minutes vs energy
00:07:23: Visualising energy and the energy exchange
00:08:56: How to approach energy differently...
00:10:21: ... 1: perspective
00:17:33: ... 2: relationships
00:27:27: ... 3: environment
00:32:32: Energy within a team
00:34:47: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Sarah Ellis: Hi, I'm Sarah. 

Helen Tupper: And I'm Helen. 

Sarah Ellis: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast.  Every week, we take a different topic to do with work, and we share some ideas and some actions that we just hope are going to help all of us navigate our Squiggly Careers with that bit more confidence and control.

Helen Tupper: And if you haven't already, make sure that you sign up for our Squiggly Careers in Action weekly newsletter.  You'll be able to download the PodSheet that comes with this episode and you'll also get lots of other links to learn from too.  So, today we are going to be talking about energy at work and why managing your energy is more important than just managing your time.  I think it's a slightly different episode to normal --

Sarah Ellis: A bit different.

Helen Tupper: -- because we are answering a question that has come from our audience, which we get asked a lot from people we know, people we don't know, "How do you find energy for everything that you do?"  And I think we need to caveat that, that maybe a lot of people, they see what we do on social media, maybe.

Sarah Ellis: Maybe.  Not me!

Helen Tupper: And so, there's maybe a bit of that.  They see what I do on social media!  So, like, "How is there so much content going out?"  So, caveat that social media isn't always reflective of reality.  And then also, I think, we'd also to caveat this episode before we even start with, we are not productivity gurus and neither of us, I think the point is --

Sarah Ellis: Neither do I want to be.

Helen Tupper: -- we don't want to be.  I think that's the point.  What we're trying to get across in today's episode are, do we do quite a lot of things, a diverse range of things?  Yes, between writing books and running a business and recording a podcast and other stuff, I think we do do quite a wide variety of things, so we'll talk about how we find the energy to do those things, but we are not trying to portray ourselves as some productivity superhuman workers.  We're just two, hopefully relatively normal people who have found a way of working that gives us energy.  And I think what we want to do is share what we've learnt, in case that helps you think about how you create energy for the work that you do too.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I think what is true is that we've both realised that it's really important to take our energy seriously.  I think we really care about it, we talk about it a lot.  We talk about our energy much more than we do our time or being busy, like the busyness trap.  And actually, it's a good reflection of, if you think for yourself in your week, how often does the word 'energy' even show up?  So, for example, for us in Amazing If, every Monday morning we have our team meeting, and part of that team meeting is everybody shares a high-energy moment they're looking forward to for that week.  So, we start our week by asking people, "What's your high energy moment going to be?"  And that might be something they're doing outside of work, might be something they're doing in work, but we're already framing our working week with energy.  And then you and I, I think, are both very aware of our energy levels and then what they look like, and then the impact it has if they're not where we would them to be. 

So, I think it's just been something that over time, we talked about a lot more and we're also very aware, I think, of how much energy we end our days with.  So, I think we talk a lot about energy in work and during work, but I think it's as important to think about when you get to the end of a Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, what does that energy level look like for you?  Because if every day your battery is completely drained, when you've finished the work part of your day, you don't have energy for anything else, all the other things that matter to you.  And you and I both have had those conversations where we say, "Well, it's important to us that we've got the energy to exercise, to spend time with friends, for hobbies, for our kids, for the other things that we want to do".  And if you're just completely drained at the end of a day or at the end of a week, then all of your sort of non-work time becomes about recovery and replenishment, but you're not then giving energy to the other things that are important to you.

Helen Tupper: I was trying to think as well about what's maybe changed that's meant that we've got better at this.  Because if I go back five years or so, in corporate life, so I would have been in Microsoft, I think I probably thought more about my time in sort of meetings and minutes.  So, that was the currency of my work, was how many meetings am I in and how many hours and minutes am I working a week and how can I make sure that that is optimal for my impact? 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, really efficient.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, I think I thought about it in that way.  Whereas since we have done this, I've become much more aware of actually the energy that we have is so important for our impact.  It's nothing to do with minutes or meetings, I don't think about that at all.  I think about, our work depends on us giving energy to other people.  So, we might be in front of a big audience and we need to create energy.  So, I can't create energy if I've not got any to start with.  So, I'm much more aware of the exchange of energy that is going on in my week with the people that might be in our company or the people that we might be working with.  And I think actually I could have thought about it like that in Microsoft, I just didn't.  I think I got into a sort of a minutes-and-meetings trap in terms of how I thought about my impact.  Whereas if I was going to go back to Microsoft now, I would still now think about the energy exchange in my week and who I was exchanging energy with and how I meant that each day, I was starting with as much energy as possible.  It just wasn't my frame five years ago.

Sarah Ellis: I think it was more for me actually, for quite a long time, but I think I always felt like a bit of an oddball as a result. 

Helen Tupper: You? 

Sarah Ellis: Yes, surely not!  But I think some of the things that I did and some of the choices that I made, actually going back as far as when I worked in Barclays, I could feel the difference in my energy.  And then, I think I could see the difference in my work, in finding flow, but also the quality of the work that I was doing and how proud I felt of that work.  When I started to get into more like, "Well, what gives me energy?" and that means I can kind of, as you say, give energy to the work that I'm doing to other people, I think I could really feel the difference.  And also, I didn't like the opposite.  So, I wasn't as good at coping at back-to-back meetings and things that just felt like you were draining and getting depleted.  I think I kind of almost railed and riled against that quite early on, but then it felt very hard to do in those big environments.  So, I think I did it in smaller pockets.  Some of the things that we're going to talk about I think have been present in my work actually for quite a long time, but now I have more freedom and flexibility to make it more core to how I work.

Helen Tupper: I also feel like there is more opportunity for you to influence the work that gives you energy than sometimes it is in terms of the minutes and meetings. 

Sarah Ellis: Yes. 

Helen Tupper: Like, my reflection on Microsoft, I might've thought, "I'm in too many meetings, I'm spending too many minutes doing this", but good luck trying to get yourself out of some of those things.  Whereas, when I think about some of the things we're going to talk about today in terms of energy, I feel like I have much more autonomy over those things.  So, working with your energy is more in your control than perhaps the whole minutes-and-meetings type approach.

Sarah Ellis: So, both of us said we find it helpful to think visually about energy, I just think it is quite a visual concept.  And we sort of imagine our energy going up, down and kind of neutral during a week.  And it's important to say, I think that neutral matters.  So, it's not just all about high energy, low energy.  It is also about having those moments of just neutral.  It's like, you're not giving a lot of energy but it's not draining either, and then you're just sort of fine and that's important.  So, I think the mix of energy across your week matters.  So, it might even be worth you tracking that for a week or so, quite an easy thing to track, like, "When do I feel I'm really receiving energy maybe from other people?"  You could do it as like an exchange, "When do I feel like I'm receiving it?  When do I feel like I'm giving it?  Does it feel like that is two-way or does it feel like it's one way?"  If I think about some things that we do, you know when you get a brilliant audience and you're on a stage?  I think the energy exchange can actually be really high.  And so, actually I've taken loads of energy from that audience, and hopefully I've given some too.  But also, you can sometimes be in some rooms where you're like, "Wow". 

Helen Tupper: Giving a lot! 

Sarah Ellis: I feel like I'm giving a lot, I'm maybe not getting loads in return.  Maybe they're just not connecting or our approach is very different to things they've seen before, and so you feel like you're giving loads and loads and loads.  And it doesn't mean that it's not valuable for those people, it just means that the exchange is not there.  So, I think energy exchange is also an interesting one.  And we've reflected on three areas and how we approach energy differently, because we actually think energy is so personal for everybody, our differences are probably more interesting than our similarities.  So, people say to both of us, "How do you have the energy?"  And actually, the answer to that is quite different. 

So, we've reflected on perspective, relationships and environment and the impact that has on our energy.  And we're going to talk about each of those and what contributes to either giving energy or draining it, in case there are some useful things here that you can borrow or try out for yourself.

Helen Tupper: Maybe just one more thing before we go into those, understanding this about each other is really helpful.  So, it's totally okay for you to have your own way, and hopefully you'll pick up some ideas from what we share, but in a team, understanding these different areas in terms of how do you get energy in these different areas, it's so useful, because it helps you to design your day or the meetings that you have or the time that you spend with that person, with that in mind.  So, I'll often be thinking about, when I'm spending time with Sarah, how do I make sure that the days that we spend together will have some of the things that I know are important to Sarah's energy in.  Otherwise, if I just do it the way I want it, I basically get a slightly disengaged Sarah by the end of the day.  It's got to work for both of you, but it is very helpful to know what good looks for the other person.

Sarah Ellis: And so, I think this first one, we are pretty dramatically different in how we manage our energy.  So, talk about perspective.  What gives you energy?  In an average working week, you're like, "Right, I want energy", what perspective do you take that helps to keep that kind of graph on the high?

Helen Tupper: So, the simplest way of thinking about perspective, I think, is past, present, future.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.

Helen Tupper: And so, for me, the perspective that is useful for my energy is present.  I am very, very present-focused.  So, that means that I don't get distracted by what happened yesterday or what happened last week, or it just doesn't enter my mind.

Sarah Ellis: You're so in the moment!

Helen Tupper: I'm so in the moment!  And I'm also not worrying, or it's not even worrying, I don't need to go to the future to be like, "Oh, well, the reason I'm..." I don't need to get energy by attaching myself to a future outcome.  So, "The reason that we're recording this podcast today is so that we can help thousands of people with their energy".  I don't need that.  I just get energy from this moment.  

Sarah Ellis: Right now!

Helen Tupper: Right now, this conversation.  I'm in it as much as possible.  And the reason it works for me is I don't have the other noise.  I don't have the other noise, and every moment that I'm in is the moment in my mind, if that makes sense, and that means I can just give all my energy to it and then I'll move from this to the next moment, and that's where I am.  So, for me, being very present and parking all the stuff around a moment helps me to give as much energy as I can in that moment, and that's really different to you.

Sarah Ellis: So, just for people listening though who might be thinking, "Wow that sounds hard to do", like finding the signal in amongst the noise, letting go of all of the things that are happening, that's quite a hard thing to do.  Almost if you were giving people advice on how to do that, where would you start, if you are somebody who does get distracted by all of the noise?

Helen Tupper: So, I think, I mean the past thing, that's very personal, I'm just not anchored to the past at all.  That is just a very, very personal thing.  I'm just, "It's gone, it's done".  So, I don't think I have any advice for that.  I think that's just a Helen behavioural thing.  I do think it's important to think about the future, I do think that's an important thing to do, but there are moments that I almost diarise it.  Because my head doesn't go naturally there, I know that I have moments in my diary, like with Sarah, for example, is probably the person I would most think about the future with, and that has to be scheduled, otherwise I just won't do it.  I'm so in the moment with my energy that it almost might be bad actually for us being able to think ahead.  So, as long as I've got those moments diarised, that means that those things will get done. 

But I also, I guess, have little moments where I let the world in.  So, I'll be high energy here right now, then I'll have a little moment where I'll kind of check in on the world around me.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, you do do that.  That's quite interesting.

Helen Tupper: I have a little check-in moment between, let's say we're doing this podcast and then Sarah and I are going to go do something else this afternoon, I'll have a little bit of check-in where I sort of let the world in, and then I'm done yeah; ten minutes, done, away, back to being present in the moment.  So, I don't really know how helpful that is in terms of how practical, but that not letting the noise of past future go on around me, just being as present as I can in the moment, is very, very effective for my energy. 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and I think I'm quite different in terms of what gives me energy.  So, I often find, because of all of the noise and the different things that we could do and that we want to do, I actually find I operate almost simultaneously across different time horizons. 

Helen Tupper: Yeah, you do. 

Sarah Ellis: And I find that motivating, I find that gives me energy.  So, I'm not super past-orientated, but I do want to know things like the data.  So, I wouldn't want to make a decision without data, especially when I know we now have some data that perhaps we didn't have before.  So, if we were talking about the podcast, I would always be like, "But let's remind ourselves, what does the data tell us?  What have we learned so far?"  So, I like that, making sure that we're learning as we go.  Then I'm like, "What's the decision that we need to make now?" so, I don't mind being present-focused at all.  But then, I've also always got one eye on, "And then in six months' time, what might this mean?  In a year's time, what might this mean?  In five years' time, what could this mean?"  So, I think I get energy from actually almost jumping across different time horizons, which I can imagine, you know we talked about working together, for some people, and I can see that sometimes, because my brain naturally goes to, "I'm really happy to be present", and then ask a question about two to three years' time.  And for some people, you're like, "That's too far".  You're like, "But I can't be present and do that at the same time". 

Helen Tupper: It keeps you engaged in your work, doesn't it, like joining the dots for you? 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.  I think the agility of the different time horizons, I think it gives me confidence, which gives me energy.  I'm confident so we're not forgetting what's gone before, confidence in where we're going in the future, and therefore we're doing the right thing for now.  So, to your point, I connect the dots, that gives me energy.  And I think what drains my energy is if, particularly probably if I'm in present and we are ignoring the other two, like it's important to know what works for you and what works against your energy, I think if we were thinking about something and we were completely ignoring what's gone before and completely ignoring where we might go, I think I would find that draining, because I would find that too tactical, too in the moment.  Sometimes you actually do need to do that though.  But you know if you've got a really specific agenda where you just need to work through a list of stuff?  I don't ever want to be in that meeting!  I guess that's what a lot of meetings are, but I was just trying to imagine if you're just like, "Okay, we just need to do that, tick that off the list, cross that off, cross that off", I'm like, "Oh, okay!" 

Helen Tupper: It's funny, because obviously we have a bit of an energy clash with this kind of thing, and we're aware of it, which is why it's okay.  But some of those meetings, I just don't invite you to them, because I find them quite energising because I'm like, "Oh, wow, we got it done, amazing, half an hour well spent", and you'd be like, "This is the worst half an hour of my week".  And so, some of them, I'm just, I'll do them with the team, for example, and I just think, "Sarah's not going to come out energised by that meeting.  So, I can update her afterwards, but she doesn't need to be in it".  And so, again, it's just the point of sharing this.  We're not trying to be the same. 

I do notice for you, though, that your approach for your energy is particularly helpful in a hard moment, where I would just go, "Well, let's just be present.  Let's just keep going, keep going".  And you will only stay engaged and energised if you've done the, "Well, the reason we're doing this is… and I'm trying this today, and I'm doing it because of this data".  I know that that helps you stay engaged and energised by your work, when you're sort of rationalising it with your perspectives.

Sarah Ellis: So, that's the first one that we do differently!

Helen Tupper: That's the first one, yeah!

Sarah Ellis: The next one we thought was interesting is energy around relationships, because I do think energy often does feel like an exchange.  Other people matter, so I think everybody's energy, whether you're more extroverted like Helen or more introverted like me.  And I think the thing that I noticed about my energy is having deep connections and one-to-one conversations always makes a difference to my energy in a week.  And often those conversations, thinking back to perspectives, are more about the future.  So, I'm having a conversation with somebody and we're just exploring, we're talking about what might be, what could be, where things might go, maybe I'm just learning from that other person, but these are those curious career conversations.  They're thoughtful and they're intentional.  I do them a lot more in person again now actually, because people are around a bit more, not always though.  And I find with those, if they disappear from my weeks completely, or I start to deprioritise them, which is really tempting to do, my energy goes down. 

What's interesting is that often, it's after the conversation that I feel like really energised.  It's the hour afterwards, if I can then be by myself, that conversation will have often sparked five or six different thoughts for me.  I sort of need some time alone then to process and almost use that energy usefully to then be like, "It's giving me an idea about this.  I've got an idea about that now.  I'm going to write some things down", and I'm really sort of sparky and I can almost feel the energy.  But it's quite hard to do, I would say.  I see that, because those things can be hard to make time for, and they're often quite time-consuming in that I don't have quick conversations.  It's just, I find it really hard to have a half-hour conversation.  I'm an hour, a 90-minute conversation person, so you're not doing that that frequently.

So, one of my reflections actually thinking about this was, that doesn't happen, that's not a weekly thing, I don't have one of those conversations every week.  I probably do have one every month, but I might just want to think about, "Are there other ways that I could more frequently get energy from some of those relationships, that don't always have to look a 90-minute, deep conversation?"

Helen Tupper: Do you have a list of people, I'm just trying to work out, if you're organising your diary around, you know that gives you energy, you know that you don't want to deprioritise it, so do you have a list of people you would have those conversations with?

Sarah Ellis: So, I don't have a list written down, I think I do have a default of four or five people who I know really well, who I would always enjoy having a conversation with.  And I do make an effort to stay connected to those people to try and spend time with them.  I also then try and blend that probably 50/50 with newness, because otherwise I am definitely someone who would be at risk of, "I'm still having the same conversations with the same people".  And they definitely give me energy, but then I'm not getting, you know, you do need to meet new people who've got different experiences and different things to offer you.  And so, I think I am quite thoughtful about who those four or five people are, and I think there are a couple who maintain their place, because they are people that, yeah, I just really appreciate their perspective and I love spending time with them.  And then, there are new people who make it into that list.  And almost if I've not seen them for a while, I just think something goes off in my head where I'm like, "Oh, I've not seen that person for a month or a couple of months.  I'll reconnect, I'll see if they want a coffee, I'll see if they want to grab something to eat at some point" and we kind of get it sorted.

Helen Tupper: I can always tell when you have had those conversations because your voice notes to me are extra-special. 

Sarah Ellis: Extra-special voice notes!

Helen Tupper: It's like a list of enthusiasm, which is not the go-to.  I wouldn't say it's the go-to for you.  It's very enthusiastic.  And there's about six ideas, or it's a jumble, because you're generally quite coherent.

Sarah Ellis: Apart from in those voice notes.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, but I can actually hear the energy.  The most recent one that you did like that was after your conversation with Dr Sunita Sah.

Sarah Ellis: Oh yeah, she was really good, that's why. 

Helen Tupper: That was definitely one where it was just like the energy, I could really hear how sparky that was for you in terms of the energy and ideas.  So, this is another one where we're very different. 

Sarah Ellis: Yes!

Helen Tupper: I mean, I hope this is helpful for people to listen, because it's mainly just our differences!

Sarah Ellis: Whatever, it will prove that there's not just one way.

Helen Tupper: Yes.  So, my energy is definitely, when you talk about 90-minute, deep, thoughtful conversations, I mean, it's not that I wouldn't enjoy them, I would like, "Oh, it's interesting", but that would not give me energy.  I'm much more one to many, put me in a room with lots of people, I think almost like a human ping pong ball.  I know that sounds awful!

Sarah Ellis: Like a pinball machine!

Helen Tupper: Yeah, that, and be like, "Oh, my gosh", and like, "Oh, that's so interesting that you're doing that", and then sort of bringing someone into a conversation.  I'd grab someone and I'd be like, "Let's ping pong over here".

Sarah Ellis: It is almost surprising that you've stuck with me, when I listen to these things.  What is interesting though is like, it's not surprising that I've stuck with you, but it's more surprising that you've stuck with me.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, but there are just certain things we don't do together. 

Sarah Ellis: That's also true! 

Helen Tupper: We've just worked out that they'd just be bad things to do together!  Because in those moments, it would just be a bad energy cocktail, I think.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I don't want to be part of your pinball machine.

Helen Tupper: Yeah.  You have a ping pong, pinball machine, I'm sort of mixing two ideas.  But I think it's the same.  Yeah, it's a pinball machine.  But actually, what's interesting is I've got that quote on my phone this year about meeting people being a pinball, you never know where it's going to take you.  But that actually does sit really well with me.  And so, I think what gives me energy is making sure in my week, that I have maybe pinball moments, like when am I in a meeting or an environment where there's lots of newness, they're relatively quick conversations?  So, I had one last week when I was in Lisbon, until I got poorly, where there was lots of people to sort of pinball within there, lots of new people, I've got one this week where I'll be reconnecting with a few people, but they're quite short conversations.  I don't have an agenda, because maybe yours are more thoughtful, there are some topics you're talking about.  Mine are very agenda-less.  And even if, I don't know, sometimes I just come away and I'm like, "Oh, it's just nice to spend some time with those people".  And I think maybe I steal their energy.  Maybe I'm bouncing around and just moment of conversations, I come away and I'm like --

Sarah Ellis: You've sort of topped up that battery?

Helen Tupper: Yeah, it's like a top up. 

Sarah Ellis: I've just got images now of you plugging into people being like, "I'll take a bit of your energy, I'll take a bit of your energy"!

Helen Tupper: Oh, my gosh, I was watching a Black Mirror episode last night.

Sarah Ellis: I've not watched them yet, so don't tell me too much. 

Helen Tupper: Okay, but there's an episode where someone plugs into the throng.  I'm going to leave it.  Anybody who's watched them, maybe I might be plugging into the throng! 

Sarah Ellis: Honestly, I have to be careful of Black Mirror, because they do give me genuine nightmares sometimes.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, it doesn't end well!  It's probably a pass on that one!

Sarah Ellis: I think you have to be in the right mood for Black Mirror, I've discovered.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, I agree, one episode at a time.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, otherwise you're like, "No!"

Helen Tupper: Well, think of me nicely when you watch that episode!

Sarah Ellis: One reflection, I think, on relationships, is I do wonder whether it's a useful thing for people listening to think about, is there are the relationships that you have in your day job, and then there are relationships that kind of go beyond your day job.  And what we have both defaulted to actually is relationships beyond our day job that give us both energy, and what that looks like.  So, those pinball conversations you're having may be something to do with your day job, but mainly not.  Same with me.  I might be running an idea about Amazing if past somebody, but they're not the sort of real core day-to-day.  And so, I think that takes a bit of effort.  So, actually, when people say, "Well, how do you do it?" I'm like, "Well, actually, we both put effort into that".  Those things, from both of us, take effort and they're real choice to go beyond the day. 

Then, I think in the kind of the day job, thinking also about the energy that you bring to the core of what you do, I think we both also put a lot of effort into that.  Like, I will really think about, if I'm doing a workshop and I know you would be the same for 500 people or 1,000 people, if we're doing a big learning programme, both of us are very conscious in going, "Our job, our accountability is to turn up with energy", so what does that mean?  Does that mean a break beforehand?  Does that mean thinking about you know what your morning looked before that moment?  And so, I think we do think about it across both of those, but it just shows that sometimes, beyond the day job matters.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, and again, I will look at my week.  So, for example, I'm going out tonight, but I've got some things tomorrow.  And I'll just be thinking about, "What will my energy look like in the flow of my week, and what do I need to do differently so that I show up how I want to?  Yeah, it's just a very different way of looking at your week, I think.

Sarah Ellis: Which perhaps takes us on to the final one.  So, environment.  So, how does your environment affect your energy?

Helen Tupper: So, for me, I think maybe it's like the present thing.  I find sometimes mixing things up too much a bit hard.  It's almost like I have to reset every time and that's not always really productive.  And this, again, is often sometimes while we have a clash.  I'm better at being like, "Today, I am here.  I am here, I am doing this, I'm with these people", and I'm all into this, I sort of connect with that.  Whereas then if it's like, "And now I've got to go there, and then I've got to go there", I feel like I have to hit reset all the time, and that's not very helpful for me.  So, I will look at my week and I would often think like, "What place am I in?  Okay, I'm London here, I'm here on this day", or whatever, and I'll think about that place and that will set me up for the day.  So, I like the mix over a week, but I quite it to look the same in a day, if that makes sense.  Whereas, I think that doesn't work for you.

Sarah Ellis: No, I mean variety is one of my values, and so actually I find, if I've been in different spaces during a day, it massively increases my energy.  So, I think it's actually always why corporate life, I did find it quite hard, the whole back-to-back meetings, you could be in a meeting room for three or four hours.  And I actually get a bit sort of like, "I need to go outside", I just need to be somewhere different, and ideally doing something different as well.  So, I actually don't mind a bit of switching during a day, switching of contexts, not too much because too much is a bit of a killer, it's too hard, but if it was like, "Well, in the morning I'm doing this one thing, and then actually I'm going out for a walk, or I'm going to a different place", or I've actually started to do this much more in the last six months, I live just outside London, and sometimes I come into London at the end of a day, which almost feels counterintuitive.  As everyone else is going home, I go into London, and that might be because I'm going to an event.  So, recently I went to see Reid Hoffman speak, and it feels a bit like, I can imagine you going, "That feels inefficient".

Helen Tupper: I was about to say that.

Sarah Ellis: "Why are you not getting into London for the day to then go to that?" 

Helen Tupper: Yeah.

Sarah Ellis: But I go, "Oh, no, because then I've had a better start to my day", because I'm at home.  I'd rather be at home first thing in the morning, always.  I've gone for a morning walk, I've given energy to whatever I'm doing for Amazing If, had whatever conversations, then that part of my day closes.  Then I've gone on a train and there's a bit of transition, and I think trains, I find, are quite a neutral energy moment.  I'm listening to a podcast or I'm reading something, and then I can give energy and attention to then the event that I'm going to in the evening.  And then I go home on a high.  And so, I think sometimes that's about experimenting as well, with what gives you energy around place and environment.  Because even when I worked in big companies, you know when hot-desking first became a thing, and even now actually, I talked to someone in a company, that I will keep anonymous, last week who was like, "Oh, we've got a new space and people are going to be hot-desking.  Everyone's really antsy about it".  You know people get really uptight about hot desking?

Helen Tupper: Yeah.

Sarah Ellis: Whereas I was always like, "Great, I'd love to not work in the same place every day".  And I was an early adopter of, "Oh, go and work in the canteen, go and work in the open spaces, go and work in the coffee shop", I'm like, "Yeah, brilliant, I want to do that".  But I think for some people, they find that an added stressor to their day, which I do understand as well, it's just very different to me.

Helen Tupper: I think this is about energy and efficiency.  Like it is efficient for me to design a day that looks sort of same place, same agenda, to get that done, to get the 'done' thing.  Whereas that isn't efficient for you, your energy is not efficient, it drains without the difference.  And it's, again, I think I almost had a Venn diagram of what's the best environment for you, what does good energy look for you and what does efficiency?  It's sort of in the middle of that is how you design an environment that works well. 

Sarah Ellis: And I do think you describe your flow of energy during a week.  The one thing we haven't talked about a lot, but we both know makes a massive difference, is also how you do spend your time and what your energy looks after work.  Because we were both reflecting on, over the last month, some of that hasn't worked for us.  So, in the spirit of balance, things have disappeared or we've not managed to make things happen in our personal lives that we know both then give us energy, and then obviously that energy flows into the next day at work.  And so, I always do look at my diary and my calendar, and it's why we spend so much time, we care a lot about what does the diary look and is it going to work; because actually, when some of those things go off balance, even if they're personal things, you then see it show up elsewhere.

So, even last week, even not knowing we were doing this podcast, I actually went through my diary between now and my summer holiday, and I do schedule going for a walk in the middle of a day, because I noticed that had dropped off.  And if I don't put those in, no one else is going to.  And then, actually, by putting it in, the time doesn't normally get taken.  But yeah, that sounds like a small thing, but that makes a really big difference to my energy during a day.  Like, I would never do a workshop for a company that we work with without having had a break beforehand.  Because that break, that's sort of when I reboot and then I'm ready to go.

Helen Tupper: So, I think to make this useful for you, I mean, hopefully it's been interesting hearing what Sarah and I do, but I think to make it useful for you, I would say look at your diary with energy in mind, like where are your highs, your lows.  Maybe do that drawing of what your ideal week would look like.  And I think talk about it with your team.  Maybe that's just your manager, you're kind of like, "This is my energy flow in a week", or ideally with your team so you can hear what works well for them too.  And I think that just a general more self-awareness and shared awareness of energy, the exchange, for example, the highs and the lows, is where you can start to then identify some actions, what you might do differently as a result of it.

Sarah Ellis: The conclusion that you and I have both got to is you can do this individually, but you can also be better together because of it.  So, when we are together, because we do know this about each other, it's like I take a break by myself. 

Helen Tupper: That's so true. 

Sarah Ellis: Helen takes no breaks!  Today, for example, I haven't taken a break where I might normally take a break, but because I knew there was a break coming, I was like, "Oh, that's okay", and I've sort of compromised a bit for Helen, because I go, "Well, that will make Helen happy", and I'm okay too.  And so, I think just knowing that just means that you can compromise enough, also within your context, within the teams that you're in, a bit like, if you're doing a team away day, I do actually think talking about, "My high-energy moments over the last month have been…", what are your top three high-energy moments at work over the last month; and what's been one moment that's drained your energy?  And that's not about being critical about the job or the organisation, because everybody would have one moment in the last month that's drained your energy. 

I actually don't know what that would be for all of our team, but that is actually a conversation I would really to have.  Because we had the conversation two or three weeks ago where we were like, "Mondays are draining our energy", and it was a specific day for loads of reasons.  But then, because we had the conversation, we've done something about it, or at least trying to do something about it.  And so, I think it's just making it really visible.  And I think really connecting the dots between energy equals impact.  I mean, partly you're doing this because you feel better, you just feel better in your week.  But the other, the big payoff, I guess, is then the quality of what you are doing.  It will make a really big difference.  So, it's sort of worth it for everyone.

Helen Tupper: So, we would love your reflections on this, any thoughts on how Sarah and I manage our energy, any conversations that you have as a team and insights you get from it.  Please let us know, because we're really interested in hearing your thoughts.  So, it's just helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com. 

Sarah Ellis: So, we hope you found that useful, that's everything for this week and we'll see you again soon.  Bye for now.