Timestamps

00:00: Helen asks for help with upcoming book

01:02: Introduction to CEO Shell Shedding series

01:54: Helen’s shell shedding moment

11:43: Sarah and Helen share friction they’ve experience

16:23: Helen and Sarah’s shell shedding moment about ways of working

22:35: One piece of learning advice

Interview Transcription

Helen Tupper: Hi, everybody, it is Helen from the Squiggly Careers Podcast. And before you listen to today's episode, I just want to do something that I honestly find quite hard. This is no joke, the sixth time I have recorded this. And that is because I'm going to ask for help and it doesn't feel easy for me to do, but here we go. We are now very close to our new book, Learn Like a Lobster, coming out. It comes out on the 5th of February, which means if you pre order now, it makes a really big difference to us. If you don't know how the book thing works, pre orders mean that books climb charts, it feeds the algorithm, and more people see our work. That means we can help more people with their career, we can help more people to grow. So if you've been considering the book, if you are a supporter of Squiggly, but you just haven't done it yet, please, please, please pre order now. It makes a really big difference to us and it means we can reach help and support more people with their Squiggly career. I'm not going to say anymore, apart from thank you, thank you for all of the support the Squiggly Careers community give us. And let's get on to today's episode.

Sarah Ellis: Hi, my name's Sarah and this is the Squiggly Careers Podcast. This is one of our special episodes where with CEOs, I'm asking them about their shell shedding moments. What happened, what helped, and words of wisdom to help you when you have those shell shedding moments too. And I feel like today is an extra special CEO slash, a very convenient interview.

Helen Tupper: She needed someone, so she found me.

Sarah Ellis: So today I don't think I've ever interviewed Helen. And when I had the idea, it made me chuckle. So I was like, oh, this sounds like it's going to be a lot of fun. Obviously, I'm going to be very professional and I am going to try and stick to the same questions I've asked the other CEOs so that Helen. So I'm being fair and consistent. Okay, so the first question is, can you share with our listeners a shell shedding moment that you've had as the CEO of Amazing? If.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, I just thought, gosh, I probably just. I'm so open on our podcast. I feel like I've probably talked about them all.

Helen Tupper: But I was thinking about when I was interviewed for a podcast. And I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna name the podcast, I'm not gonna name the person. Cause I don't really think that is useful. But what happened on the podcast was I was expecting it to be kind of like just a normal nice chat. Like, I hope ours are normal nice chat.

Sarah Ellis: We'll see. Wait, wait to the next question.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, but I was expecting it to be like a normal nice chat about squiggly careers. And it felt much more like I was being interrogated and that my answers were constantly being challenged and like, almost like the integrity of squiggly careers was being challenged. And whilst I'm always up for, I'm always up for a challenge. It didn't feel constructive and it felt like a shell shedding moment because I remember thinking, oh, I want to stop this interview. And then feeling like I couldn't, like in the moment thinking, this doesn't feel like it's the right intent. I'm not comfortable with how answering is because it's taken me by surprise. But I also don't feel able to stop it because it's, you know, it's like a live podcast recording and it felt very difficult. And you know, as our lovely little lobsters go through, it felt quite exposing.

Sarah Ellis: So what's interesting about lobsters, I'll have you know, just in case you didn't know this, is they shed their shells and then afterwards, even though it's been a energy zapping and exhausting process, they are better because of it. So they, you know, they grow back and they're bigger and stronger. And listening to you there describe that, I'm like, oh, it's definitely shell shedding. But when you look back, do you think you are better because of it or do you just think it was a bad experience?

Helen Tupper: You know what, I did learn some things that I totally acted on since, but I did learn some things.

Sarah Ellis: At least you're honest.

Helen Tupper: Some honest. I should probably do more of them. I think I just sort of trust people that they've got good intent. But what. Not very long after the moment at all, I did think about like, okay, what would I do differently if I was in this situation again? And I think one thing that might have helped me and I didn't do was listen to that person do a previous podcast. Because what I didn't know really was whether that person just didn't click with me. Like, was it a bad day? Was I just a bad fit for that person? Or was this their, Was this their style?

Sarah Ellis: Yeah. Deliberately provocative or whatever.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, yeah. And I didn't know that and that that was on me because I hadn't listened to another podcast that that person has done and I did think my learning was, oh, don't put yourself in that position again, like, go in prepared and make sure that you've listened to somebody else's podcast before you are on their show. Now, honestly, I've not done that. I've not done that for any anyone, because I kind of go, oh, I just hope people are curious and operating with good intent. Which neither of those things I think were true in that particular instance.

Sarah Ellis: I suppose, though, what's interesting is those shell shedding moments feel uncomfortable, but they probably do make us more resilient, you know, because if you think back to the lobsters, they have repeated shell shedding moments and we have the same in our weeks in our careers. And sometimes they're those big memorable shell shedding moments. Like that. That example that you were sharing there feels quite visceral. You're like, I couldn't. I can remember what that felt like. And you looked even, like, uncomfortable just talking about it. And then we have like all of the smaller, like, shell shedding moments every week where something might take you by surprise because you talk there about, like, being kind of taken by surprise. And I guess where we are different to our new friend the lobster is we can get some help or support. So lobsters sort of do it themselves. But I'm interested to know maybe for that example, but also generally, as CEO of Amazing, if, like, what are some of the things that have helped you during those uncomfortable, energy zapping moments? Is it people? Is it places? Is it something that different?

Helen Tupper: Definitely people. People definitely helps me. So that particular situation, I think I came back to the team really, really quickly. I was like, ah, about this hard thing, which I don't think helped me to learn, but it did mean that I wasn't. I didn't start to spiral. So actually sharing it pretty quickly stopped the spiral, which meant that I could move more into a learning frame of mind. The thing that also helped me was getting somebody's accurate reflections. So, like, in the moment, people are like, oh, I'm sure it wasn't that bad. You'll be okay. You've done podcasts before, which is very supportive and helps stop the spiral. But the thing that I think really helped was when a couple of people listened to the episode afterwards and then I kind of got it. It really wasn't that bad. And that was sort of reassuring and they weren't taking away from how I felt, like, oh, you didn't need to feel bad about it. No one said that. It was just, it sounded like it was really hard, Helen. But actually the interview is useful and it is good, and that's the thing that we need to care about. And I think it helped me to learn sometimes to disconnect almost like the experience of something from that output in a way. Like, do I wanna do that interview again? No. But what was the thing? No, thank you. But was the thing that came out, is it okay? I don't have to worry about two things, if you know what I mean. Like, the actual output was okay. But I think generally in, in hard moments, particularly where I feel vulnerable, the thing that really helps me is not keeping it to myself. I, you know, like, the problem, the problem shared and just, just talking it through with somebody tends to help me kind of get back on track. But I think the even better if is that not for that to be not just a supportive conversation, but a reflective conversation. Because supportive conversations kind of make you feel nice, but you don't necessarily learn. But if I talk to you, for example, you will just naturally ask me some reflective questions. So I get support and learning out of it.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I think it's an interesting question for everybody. Like, how can you look for the learning in those shell shedding moments? Because often that's the last thing on our minds. You know, when you've just had that interview experience, you're not trying to learn, you're like coping and trying to find your way through a moment and then probably afterwards want to do whatever your default is to make yourself feel good again. You know, like, hide away, get a coffee, have a drink, like, you know, like whatever it is. And so I do think it definitely takes almost a level of learning maturity to be like, I am going to look for the learning and I'm going to do it now. You know, I'm going to try and do it as quickly as I can while it's fresh. Not because I think the shell shedding moments are necessarily always repeatable. Certainly the big ones I think rarely are. You know, you rarely have exactly the same situation twice. I think it's more when you practise shell shedding moments, like learning in a shell shedding moment, whatever the next one then looks like you've got some, like, some ways and means to like, look for that learning. So is that about a conversation with a person who just asks you some really good questions? Is it about writing down the three what worked Wells? The one even better if, is it about someone who's really far away from a situation? So they're going to give you some different data because they've got that kind of distance. So though I would never want to force people into shell shedding moments, I think the more you do practise them, the more kind of comfortable you feel with that, the kind of shell shedding experience. And people will have perhaps heard us talk before about, you know, we share mistake moments in our team, so we have a channel where everybody shares the mistakes they made and more importantly, like, what did they learn? How do you feel like sharing your mistakes in that channel? And is there anything else that you do, when you do make mistakes that kind of helps you with the uncomfortableness?

Helen Tupper: Having the process of mistake moments has definitely helped me and sort of seeing how well the team have embraced it, because I could sometimes I make a mistake and I'll be like, I probably keep it to myself a little bit. But I think the fact that we have that process and that I really do believe in role modelling and I really, I really do think it's important for our team to see us taking learning from mistakes seriously. So that, that definitely matters to me and I find the process useful. So when we share mistake moments, it's sort of like a way, what was the mistake? A bit of a what. What led to the mistake? So kind of like a little bit of an analysis and then a, well, what have you learned from it? And I find that just a very useful thing to go through, through mentally. But I often, I think my biggest thing with mistakes is, like, I feel like I've let either, like let myself down or let someone down. Like I have to letting someone down versus letting the learning in. Like, I have to work quite hard to change that because if I feel like I've let someone, it's. It's such a strong emotion that it can be hard for me to let the learning in. Which is, which is why that practise has been very useful because I kind of get, I get, I still feel it, I still feel that, oh, I'm so annoyed at myself that I did that and I still have that. But the process means that at least I can let the learning in. And in sharing it, you end up getting support from people as well. And maybe you haven't let someone down quite as badly as you thought.

Sarah Ellis: What about shell shedding moments between you and I? So we're in like an unusual situation. So we were friends first for a long time. We became co founders. You're obviously our CEO and we're still friends mainly until the end of this episode. Until the end of this episode. I would imagine we're relatively unusual dynamic in that we've got friends. So as in we will. We're friends. We'll talk about other stuff other than work at least some of the times on occasion. But. But you know, then we're running a company together. And not only are you running a company together, you're writing books together and doing events and all sorts of different things. Some of our friends know each other, some of our friends don't know each other. You know, all of those kind of things. I think there's also kind of shell shedding moments between the two of us, between kind of our relationship where things might have felt hard or energy zapping and actually maybe our relationship is better because of those moments, but they didn't feel particularly fun at the time. I mean, I can think of some clearly. Otherwise I wouldn't ask the question. So you could choose. I was like, oh, I would. I wonder which one she'll be brave enough to choose. But yeah, maybe if you choose share one and if my one in my head is different, I'll be. I'll share one too.

Helen Tupper: Well, I think probably the usefulness is the what you learn from it. Right. So I can think of two situations where we have had friction, and the thing that we had friction about was different.

Sarah Ellis: I love how slowly you're talking.

Helen Tupper: I'm like. Well, I'm kind of thinking because I'm actually don't. I think one was about money and another was about. I don't even know what the other one was really about. But it was definitely a moment of friction. But my reflection on it was that they both happened in social situations. And I think what I have learned is that we are just not very good in social situations together. I really have learned this. So Sarah and I. I like to sound awful. It does. But I think Sarah and I are as in sync as two people I think could ever be about work. Like, we are so in sync with our values and what we want to achieve and the way that we work and. And even our differences are they fit together. Like, even where we are different approaches. I just think if we talked about work all day, every day, we'd be in sync. It'd be fine. But we also do things other than work and the things that we do outside of work are where our differences are not very in sync. Like we just. We just spend time with different people, we do different things. We get our energy from different sources. And so I think any time we spend time with each Other. I think there was a reason we weren't friends at university. It was because. Because that was more about that side of us and it's so different from each other. And I don't think. It's not that we don't respect each other's differences. I just think it doesn't. Spending time with each other socially is never where we, our connection is at its best.

Sarah Ellis: But I think one of the ways that we were better because of it was that we didn't just leave the friction. So we could have done right, we could have gone well, doesn't really matter. But you're very good at like fixing friction fast. We're both quite good at calling it when something doesn't feel right. And after that we both. So like you say, we're probably. I can't remember some of the specifics now, but I remember us both being like that doesn't feel good. And I would also reflect. I think it makes you, well, I think perhaps a bit like kinder to each other as well. You know, sort of the way that we show up the rest of the time spotting some situations where it's like, okay, okay, let's be a bit kinder to each other because in those situations we are slightly different. It's a different aspect of both who we are and it is the reason we weren't friends in the first place and that is okay. But you know, I suppose having the openness and the confidence to talk about that because imagine if you didn't, you know, like, imagine if you just kept having those examples breed resentment.

Helen Tupper: Wouldn't it. You would be, you would never grow from it.

Sarah Ellis: You'd just be stuck, stuck in the same shell. Like you know, like the repeat, the repeated. Because it did happen a couple of times I think for us before we learned from it until we were like, something's not right here. This is like clearly. And then you're sort of stuck in your shell. You're not learning and growing and then I suspect it just feels worse and worse and worse. And then that's why people say don't run companies with your friends, you know, because then people have, you then have one instance where someone says something, you know, they really regret and you kind of can't, can't come back for it. I was actually also thinking of a non social one to okay, yeah, which I thought might be a good one because I was trying to think of like joint shell shedding moments as well. I was thinking when we wrote you coach you this was very work related and because we couldn't see each other. We had a real. We had a bit of a shell shedding moment around like, ways of working. We had one chapter we were writing on relationships. And it was like ironic. It was ironic that it was on relationships. I think I just. I always. I can like viscerally remember this. And the way that we were writing that chapter was I would write one version. Helen would read it and obviously think, well, I don't like it. And so what she would do is get up really early. Cause she wakes up really early, almost like rewrite her version and send it. And I would wake up in the morning at like whatever time, seven probably. And Helen had sent me like 4 million messages in the last two hours. It'd all been like redone. I'd sort of breed resentment. Then I'd wait till she'd like. I wasn't like waiting, but it was probably like once Helen had gone to bed or like later in the day. And then I'd be like, well, this is not right. And then I would just do my version again. And so we just had this like. I think it was probably only about three days, but it did feel really bad where we were sort of kind of. It's like passive aggressive, I guess, isn't it? Because you're not actually arguing. You're just going my way, my way.

Helen Tupper: You're stuck again, aren't you? I guess.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, you're stuck in your shell again.

Helen Tupper: Because like, in order to grow, sometimes you do have to say the hard things. Which doesn't have to be sound like a bad thing. It might be just this isn't working like that might be saying a hard thing.

Sarah Ellis: And the other thing that I wonder whether has helped both of us, and I think this is kind of what you were describing before is I think we have both got better at, you know, the whole let it go to let it grow thing. Like, if you and I are thinking very differently about something almost. I think the way that we resolve it now, and I think we're often better because of it, is we both go, well, let's individually both let go of what we think. Like I think A, you think B. And we both go, okay, let's ignore A and B. Let's just remind ourselves, you know, like why we're doing what we're doing or what we're trying to achieve, or what matters most. It's like a bigger question. And then once you start talking about that question, it helps you to kind of find your way through. You keep the bits that are important, but you don't get too attached. And I think that helps you in those shell shedding moments. Because I think it's really natural in those moments to feel defensive, to cling on. You know, it's often more comfortable to cling onto the shell you've already got than it is to shed the shell. And so I think knowing that it kind of takes that letting go, which isn't very fun and you don't want to do it, but just having the confidence to do that. I think when you're thinking about, like, what this looks like for you, if you're in an environment where it feels harder, perhaps you don't see people being vulnerable or kind of talking about learnings from, you know, we're talking about, oh, yeah, we just all share all of our mistakes. Like that's a normal thing. In lots of companies that would feel really hard to do or in lots of teams that would feel really hard to do. So I think you also do have to do this kind of in the right way for you, depending on kind of where you are at the moment.

Helen Tupper: I think another thing that can mean you can get stuck in a situation is where you don't kind of change the context so that, you know, if we're just messaging each other, then sometimes that can get misinterpreted. Or even last night we were messing each other and it could have. We could have got a bit antsy at each other. And now I think we know each other well enough now that we can kind of hold, we can hold that debate. But also we do discuss a lot. And so I think if you are in a hard moment, I do think like changing the context, like, oh, can I go for a walk and talk? Or I get on the phone because I've got a situation, it'd be really helpful to just get your perspective on it. And like just existing on Microsoft Teams messages and WhatsApp and Google Docs with comments or whatever, whatever we're doing where something might feel like it's not quite working, I think maybe changing the context might change how you feel about the hard thing and back to kind of like the letting the emotion go to let the learning in thing. That might help.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, it's interesting, actually. I wouldn't. I think with a lot of our examples, once we talk to each other, we're okay. You know, often it is because obviously you're having to use message and WhatsApp and you're maybe commenting in documents. I think if you're finding it hard to you know, you're like, you're writing 5 million comments just on one page. You're like, okay, it's probably not time to put comments. It's probably time to have a conversation.

Helen Tupper: Yes.

Sarah Ellis: Or like, you and I can go back and forward on ideas very fast. And actually we can critique ideas very fast in a kind of very low hold way. Like, it's like fine. Like, oh, I don't think that would work because of this. And you're like, yeah, probably not. You know, like, we can do that. What was interesting about when we were doing that yesterday, we had someone else from our team involved. And then actually I think we both paused and thought, oh, that this could look really harsh. You know, from the outside in, this could look like. And it wasn't actually. I think we've had way harsher, like, interactions with each other. But, you know, like, going, oh, that won't work because of this. But we just say it in a very sort of short and succinct way. Because what we are trying to do is we're almost like going back and forth really fast. It's like, oh, what about this? Or that could be, oh, yeah, what about. Oh, that'll be tricky. And we're just so used to doing it, we just don't think about it. And then I think if. Don't forget as well, to your point on context, Change the context. But also don't forget if you're not one to one, which you're not always. Often. We're in group. We're in group shell shedding moments, right? Like a company is going through a hard time, a team is on a really, really difficult project. I think that also changes, like how you might learn about those things, how you kind of do it together. So just to finish, Helen, thank you. Thank you for the interview. Thank you for interviewing me. Thank you. Thank you. I'm so intrigued to see what people think listening. I'm like, oh, are you the CEO they thought you were? Or maybe they didn't think about you being CEO. I don't know. She's better. I've asked all our other CEOs there, so I want to get yours as well. Because we can combine them all and compare and contrast, see what everyone's saying, see what the themes are. What's one piece of learning advice that you would give to all of our listeners for their shell shedding moments? So specifically, when they're going through those hard energy, zapping moments that are uncomfortable, but we are better because of them. What's one thing you'd say to people.

Helen Tupper: I don't think you want to be defined by it, so I think you want to be developed by it, but I don't think defined by. And so. And I'll just give you an example of this. Maybe one of your shell shedding moments was where you didn't get on with a manager. Or maybe one of your shell shedding moments was quite a big failure you have at work. I think the trick here is what can you learn from that experience in the moment that can help you to learn, grow and develop? But I don't think for the rest of your career you should just be going back and back to that moment. That moment is done. That moment is gone. You are bigger and better because of it. Look for the next moment. And the reason I say it is I talk to some people and they're so. They're so defined and affected and dented. They're so dented by some of these really hard moments. And I think we almost want to see. Take from it what we can and then leave it behind. Because there are lots more shell shedding moments ahead of you to come.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.

Helen Tupper: And I don't. Dragging yourself back to the past when if you know you've learned and grown from it, like, just leave it behind, like kind of move on to the next. That would be mine.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah. I do think that's brilliant advice. I think one of the things that we say and learn like a lobster is I think you are often remembered more for how you almost show up after a hard moment or like during it. You know, if you've made a mistake, it's what you do after the mistake that people remember rather than the mistake you. And I can't even remember some of those examples. We were talking today, we were like, oh, I can't even remember exactly remember.

Helen Tupper: It felt hard.

Sarah Ellis: But yeah. And I was. I was trying to think for some of them and I couldn't. And so it's interesting, but it's like, it's actually kind of what you do next that matters. And part of that is like, have you learned so that then you can think about what you do next? And it is that ability to let go, I think is such a skill. And for someone like me who is more of a thinker and reflect and that reflection can turn to rumination. That can feel easy to say, but really hard to do. But some of the things that I think can help you to do that, you know, if you're like, I know I should do that. I think Helen's advice is good. I just don't know, like, how to do that. That's often where I do think writing things down makes a massive difference. There's all that evidence. I think some of it was from Ethan Cross in Chatter. You know. Right. If you can write your own storey down and you actually write it out, you're sort of getting out of your brain and that's a good way of letting it go. Or if you can tell the storey in some way. But, you know, if you're just retalking about it all the time, you know, to your friends, and you're still going back over and back over it, somehow you're not kind of moving on.

Helen Tupper: I agree.

Sarah Ellis: Helen, thank you so much for your interview. I feel like now we have to write another book. That means that you get to interview me, but that's probably not a good enough reason to write another book because we've only just finished writing this one.

Helen Tupper: That's very true.

Sarah Ellis: Thank you so much for listening, everyone. I really hope you're enjoying the CEO Shell Shedding series and we'll be back tomorrow for another episode. Bye for now.